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Re: how dirty can the HTML be, and still be RDFa?

From: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 15:42:25 -0500
Message-ID: <4ED2A0B1.1060402@openlinksw.com>
To: public-xg-webid@w3.org
On 11/26/11 9:05 PM, Henry Story wrote:
> On 26 Nov 2011, at 17:55, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>
>> On 11/25/11 2:26 PM, Henry Story wrote:
>>> On 25 Nov 2011, at 20:05, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/25/11 1:55 PM, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>>>>> Next, I am going to test (X)HTML+RDFa.
>>>> New blog post re. the above:
>>>>
>>>> Permalink: http://kidehen.blogspot.com/2011/11/webid-details-via-xhtmlrdfa.html
>>> Kingsley, can you try to stick with the current spec?
>>> What you have just produced in both cases is the old way of writing things. Peter did it very well in his first attempt by using the template we have put up there
>>>
>>> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/spec/#rdfa-html-notation
>>>
>>> I am just transforming all the services I have developed to only accept what is in the spec, which you voted for recently yourself.
>>>
>>> Henry
>> Henry,
>>
>> Generator updated, and here are two examples of WebID publications using html+microdata and (x)html+rdfa .
>>
>> (X)HTML+RDFa:
>>
>> <div about="http://id.myopenlink.net/about/id/entity/http/graph.facebook.com/kidehen" typeof="foaf:Person" xmlns:cert="http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/cert#"
>>     xmlns:foaf="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#">
>> <h2>My RSA Public Keys</h2>
>> <div rel="cert:key">
>> <div typeof="cert:RSAPublicKey">
>> <dl>
>> <dt>Modulus (hexadecimal)</dt>
>> <dd property="cert:modulus" datatype="xsd:hexBinary">
>>     e10aab5c72781f60eb8955b2ea903319c199edd2201842e0840d43048bf018cc92b160
>>     fedb3af19a58f193d4a4dc22ea01ecaff1ced0e1d612670daacd6743474b00ca3305ce
>>     2be6ebbd911d15137278d8ccc3455ef9478134ee5e292b6498c0d74c1fa240bca71175
>>     1674d8067b9984a0a3c98bdf9a0fb967f32ef1d59bad6d76e2d98b6ec4193db239ada7
>>     c893fe479f59bf574f34a042e69fb3bd2536f1b730446ffc70806949daf6294ba35ccc
>>     d1b72bef08d3604a8daff1df2a8e53af9468d92bdd0a9a52574cafdec1630174057b31
>>     fe8a6dffa7bcbcf24862f0ec9611c6a2e7bd66459d6e9e41d3775fa7851cd20d594309
>>     0b3fea44545e5abba4aa69
>> </dd>
>> <dt>Exponent (decimal)</dt>
>> <dd property="cert:exponent" datatype="xsd:int">65537</dd>
>> </dl>
>> </div>
>> </div>
>> </div>
>>
>>
>> HTML+Microdata:
>>
>> <div xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#"
>>     xmlns:rdfs="http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#">
>> <div itemscope="" itemid="http://id.myopenlink.net/about/id/entity/http/graph.facebook.com/kidehen"
>>     itemtype="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person">
>> <div itemprop="http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/cert#key" itemscope=""
>>         itemtype="http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/cert#RSAPublicKey">
>> <div itemprop="http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/cert#exponent">65537</div>
>> <div itemprop="http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/cert#modulus">
>>       e10aab5c72781f60eb8955b2ea903319c199edd2201842e0840d43048bf018cc92b160
>>     fedb3af19a58f193d4a4dc22ea01ecaff1ced0e1d612670daacd6743474b00ca3305ce
>>     2be6ebbd911d15137278d8ccc3455ef9478134ee5e292b6498c0d74c1fa240bca71175
>>     1674d8067b9984a0a3c98bdf9a0fb967f32ef1d59bad6d76e2d98b6ec4193db239ada7
>>     c893fe479f59bf574f34a042e69fb3bd2536f1b730446ffc70806949daf6294ba35ccc
>>     d1b72bef08d3604a8daff1df2a8e53af9468d92bdd0a9a52574cafdec1630174057b31
>>     fe8a6dffa7bcbcf24862f0ec9611c6a2e7bd66459d6e9e41d3775fa7851cd20d594309
>>     0b3fea44545e5abba4aa69
>> </div>
>> </div>
>> </div>
>> </div>
>>
>> Comment:
>>
>> Bearing in mind that html+microdata usage and tools have achieved much more market penetration than (x)html+rdfa, what's the justification for not giving html+microdata and (x)html+rdfa equal billing as example representation syntaxes re. WebID?
> Not much other than that we have something working right now. We have more people from the RDFa world on our team, and most
> people have been willing to implement RDFa.
Henry,

There is a basic contradiction. RDFa isn't main stream. RDFa will not be 
main stream. The goal of WebID should be mass adoption without syntax 
level distractions.

> That's all the reason there is for the moment: it has all to do with interoperability.

Interoperability with what? Some niche?

HTML+Microdata is aggressively promoted by Google, Microsoft, Yahoo! and 
others. It already has far more tools, developers, and supporters than 
RDFa will ever have. Thus, if you want interoperability RDFa specificity 
is an implicit contradiction.

> We can add more later, or change our priorities later.
>
> But thanks for those examples.
>
> Here are some question: how would a parser know to start parsing the one or the other in data?

How does it know that re. RDFa?

HTML+Microdata parsers understand the syntax and its role as mechanism 
for embedding structured data islands. Thus, HTML5 parsers (including 
those built into HTML5 browsers) just work.

>   Or you just try each one? Does one then
> add each of the triples one gets from each?

This is the mime type issue I mentioned earlier. RDFa is squatting, or 
attempting to squat in the text/html space when its actually xhtml (HTML 
in XML). The politics of this whole thing boils down to failed xhtml 
trying to occupy HTML space. Thus, you have the horrible DOCTYPE 
solution for RDFa which is just a dirty hack, bottom line.

>   How do these interact?.... Is this something the HTML5 working group is going to end up deciding on?

The decision is done, HTML5 browsers all grok Microdata. There are 
already tons of tools courtesy of Schema.org effort. Far more than there 
has ever been for any RDF initiative.

Kingsley
>
> Henry
>
>> Links:
>>
>> 1. http://kidehen.blogspot.com/2011/11/webid-publication-qa-xhtmlrdfa-based.html -- blogspot.com post re. (x)html+rdfa publication
>> 2. http://kidehen.blogspot.com/2011/11/webid-publication-qa-htmlmicrodata.html -- ditto re. html+microdata .
>>
>>
>> Kingsley
>>>
>>>> Source:
>>>> <div
>>>> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>>>> xmlns:cert="http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/cert#"
>>>> xmlns:rsa="http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/rsa#">   <dl typeof="rsa:RSAPublicKey">
>>>> <dt>WebId</dt>
>>>> <dd href="http://id.myopenlink.net/about/id/entity/http/twitter.com/kidehen" rel="cert:identity">
>>>>     http://id.myopenlink.net/about/id/entity/http/twitter.com/kidehen
>>>> </dd>
>>>> <dt>Modulus (hexadecimal)</dt>
>>>> <dd property="rsa:modulus" datatype="cert:hex">
>>>>     d0bbdd16b3322bfae8957f257b7a76870afa8852625c230652ef93f2ee29893564ade5
>>>>     b2caddd82ac3cafd6bca908a2fae42f2771c1072dd5bf67f9335779c03ddc33343707f
>>>>     1c0b6cc77c8f602a6686ec161700d8b0650d2d7fa4d7f6342c42749cda715c3755fee0
>>>>     e83a0e43b288a9749482e0507862b1cb41067c1d2d4de1bb420bf543f233fb70bf64e7
>>>>     4b44a6605491e0a65242286a1ada43ec4a9d8a2162bec15c8faf9759bd8e8d3571db2f
>>>>     01a09c7063567bc77fe27bb4d532de9d3aeb3619c03924b0b08810653d5c618a7d8d31
>>>>     a34534d9b2ce6b3ea6df993d00509b7b52a6124ae90c8073f0248bdd02c15e82b9a0de
>>>>     9a3df19788599be0ed2d3d
>>>> </dd>
>>>> <dt>Exponent (decimal)</dt>
>>>> <dd property="rsa:public_exponent" datatype="cert:int">65537</dd>
>>>> </dl>
>>>> </div>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Kingsley Idehen	
>>>> Founder&    CEO
>>>> OpenLink Software
>>>> Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
>>>> Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
>>>> Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
>>>> Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
>>>> LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Social Web Architect
>>> http://bblfish.net/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Kingsley Idehen	
>> Founder&   CEO
>> OpenLink Software
>> Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
>> Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
>> Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
>> Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
>> LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Social Web Architect
> http://bblfish.net/
>
>
>


-- 

Regards,

Kingsley Idehen	
Founder&  CEO
OpenLink Software
Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen








Received on Sunday, 27 November 2011 20:43:12 GMT

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