W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-xg-lld@w3.org > September 2011

Re: I18n and Linked Data - an important (but fixable) omission?

From: Felix Sasaki <felix.sasaki@dfki.de>
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 12:28:03 +0200
Message-ID: <CAL58czq0f9jScnZL6_VGA42pn8SU04VbVU6_3M3N3Dk86Wwhmw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Cc: Antoine Isaac <aisaac@few.vu.nl>, public-xg-lld@w3.org, public-i18n-core@w3.org
Hello Martin,

2011/9/8 "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>

> Hello Felix,
>
>
> On 2011/09/08 17:49, Felix Sasaki wrote:
>
>> Hi Antoine,
>>
>> I am putting the i18n core group into the loop. This group has a lot of
>> discussions like these, with arguments like you are bringing about IRIs:
>> "Many of our readers won't need to know about it, if just because they do
>> not really need it".
>>
>
> In many cases, there is indeed no need. But that applies to the individual
> identifier, not the overall infrastructure.
>
>
>  I assume that even if the library identifiers may work
>> with ASCII only,
>>
>
> I'm not familiar with library identifiers in a more narrow sense, but I can
> easily imagine e.g. that in a library in an Arabic-speaking country they'll
> use Arabic characters rather than Latin ones. I'd guess the situation would
> be about the same as with number plates for cars and such.
>
>
>  there will be in the future more and more a push towards
>> domain names that are internationlized, The National Diet Library in Japan
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**National_Diet_Library<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Diet_Library>
>> Already has an entry in the Japanese wikipedia that is an IRI
>> http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%**E5%9B%BD%E7%AB%8B%E5%9B%BD%E4%**
>> BC%9A%E5%9B%B3%E6%9B%B8%E9%A4%**A8<http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9B%BD%E7%AB%8B%E5%9B%BD%E4%BC%9A%E5%9B%B3%E6%9B%B8%E9%A4%A8>
>>
>
> That's trivially an IRI like any other URI because all URIs are IRIs. The
> 'real' IRI is http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/**国立国会図書館<http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9B%BD%E7%AB%8B%E5%9B%BD%E4%BC%9A%E5%9B%B3%E6%9B%B8%E9%A4%A8>
> .
>

You are right. With my mail user agent I was not able to paste the 'real'
IRI in, unfortunately.


>
> This makes tons of sense, because that's how a wiki works: The terms and
> topics get directly reflected in the Web address.
>
>
>  I think librarians also outside of Japan should how to handle these kind
>> of
>> identifiers.
>>
>
> Definitely.
>
>
>  Background for the i18n core folks: this is about adding a paragraph
>> related
>> to IRIs in the "library linked data incubator group" report.
>>
>
> Paragraph or sentence may be up for discussion, but not mentioning it would
> be a very sad omission.
>

I agree. Antoine, in case you see a place where this would fit without being
"too prominent", please provide a pointer.

Regards,

Felix


>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
>  Felix
>>
>> 2011/9/8 Antoine Isaac<aisaac@few.vu.nl>
>>
>>  Hi,
>>>
>>> I'd object against adding this as a self-standing recommendation. Indeed,
>>> it seems more like a general linked data or even web problem, something
>>> that
>>> goes beyond our library-focused scope. And it would make an extra layer
>>> of
>>> complexity too visible: the huge majority of material on LD (including
>>> TimBL's principle page keep to URIs, and even if it's a quite bad
>>> practice,
>>> that's for a reason (I expect, mostly because the "difference" between
>>> URLs
>>> and URIs is hard to get, next to all the other technical LD stuff).
>>> Many of our readers won't need to know about it, if just because they do
>>> not really need it -- even the more technically savvy ones.
>>> That being said, it would be really fair to slip in somewhere one
>>> sentence
>>> refering to IRIs and their advantages, e.g., when we mention best
>>> practices
>>> to create identifiers, or in the technology section.
>>>
>>> Antoine
>>>
>>>
>>>  Here I would disagree. The use of IRIs is pushed forward in many
>>> specific
>>>
>>>> Web standards - just search for "IRI" under www.w3.org/TR/<
>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/>  , or for internationalization in many W3C
>>>> charters. So the "general web practice" is to mention IRI as much as
>>>> possible. I would propose to do the same here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Felix (being active in the w3c i18n activity for some time).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2011/9/8 Karen Coyle<kcoyle@kcoyle.net<**mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    I see this as a general Web issue, not a Linked Data issue.
>>>> Presumably
>>>> Linked Data will follow Web practice.
>>>>
>>>>    kc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Quoting Tom Baker<tbaker@tbaker.de<mailto:**tbaker@tbaker.de<tbaker@tbaker.de>
>>>> >>:
>>>>
>>>>        All,
>>>>
>>>>        It has been brought to my attention that our report neglects to
>>>> acknowledge a
>>>>        need for library linked data to consider a growing requirement
>>>> for
>>>>        non-Latin-based URIs -- i.e., Internationalized Resource
>>>> Identifiers, or IRIs
>>>>        [1]:
>>>>
>>>>        "Since resource identifiers play a crucial role for the Semantic
>>>> Web, the
>>>>        internatinalization of resource identifiers is of high
>>>> importance.
>>>> It turns
>>>>        out that the prevalent resource identification mechanism on the
>>>> Semantic
>>>>        Web, i.e. URIs, are not sufficient for an efficient
>>>> internationalization of
>>>>        knowledge bases. Fortunately, with IRIs a standard for
>>>> international
>>>>        resource identifiers is available, but its support needs much
>>>> more
>>>>        penetration and homogenization in various semantic web technology
>>>> stacks.
>>>>        In addition, we review various RDF serializations with regard to
>>>> their
>>>>        support for internationalized knowledge bases. The paper also
>>>> contains an
>>>>        in-depth review of popular semantic web tools and APIs with
>>>> regard
>>>> to their
>>>>        support for internationalization. "
>>>>
>>>>        I'm not aware that anyone raised this during the comment period,
>>>> but now that
>>>>        it has been raised at the eleventh hour, I think we need to find
>>>> a
>>>> way to
>>>>        acknowledge this -- perhaps in an additional sentence or half
>>>> sentence in the
>>>>        Recommendations section [2].
>>>>
>>>>        Tom
>>>>
>>>>        [1] http://iswc2010.semanticweb.__****org/pdf/385.pdf<
>>>> http://iswc2010.semanticweb.****org/pdf/385.pdf<http://**
>>>> iswc2010.semanticweb.org/pdf/**385.pdf<http://iswc2010.semanticweb.org/pdf/385.pdf>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>         [2] http://www.w3.org/2005/__****Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft___**<http://www.w3.org/2005/__**Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft___**>
>>>> recommendations_page_take2#__****Create_URIs_for_the_items_in_**_**
>>>> _library_datasets<http://www.**w3.org/2005/__Incubator/lld/**
>>>> wiki/Draft___recommendations_**page_take2#__Create_URIs_for_**
>>>> the_items_in___library_**datasets<http://www.w3.org/2005/__Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft___recommendations_page_take2#__Create_URIs_for_the_items_in___library_datasets>
>>>> ><
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2005/****Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_**<http://www.w3.org/2005/**Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_**>
>>>> recommendations_page_take2#****Create_URIs_for_the_items_in_****
>>>> library_datasets<http://www.**w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/**
>>>> wiki/Draft_recommendations_**page_take2#Create_URIs_for_**
>>>> the_items_in_library_datasets<http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page_take2#Create_URIs_for_the_items_in_library_datasets>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>        --
>>>>        Tom Baker<tom@tombaker.org<mailto:**tom@tombaker.org<tom@tombaker.org>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    --
>>>>    Karen Coyle
>>>>    kcoyle@kcoyle.net<mailto:kcoyl**e@kcoyle.net <kcoyle@kcoyle.net>>
>>>> http://kcoyle.net
>>>>    ph: 1-510-540-7596<tel:1-510-540-7596>
>>>>    m: 1-510-435-8234<tel:1-510-435-8234>
>>>>
>>>>    skype: kcoylenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Received on Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:28:35 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:28:35 GMT