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Minutes of 2011-04-21 LLD meeting

From: Antoine Isaac <aisaac@few.vu.nl>
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:58:24 +0200
Message-ID: <4DB17B70.2050505@few.vu.nl>
To: public-xg-lld <public-xg-lld@w3.org>
Hi everyone,

The minutes of our call today are at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html

A text version follows.
Thanks again to Monica for scribing!

Cheers,

Antoine


====


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                 LLD XG

21 Apr 2011

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0047.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-irc

Attendees

    Present
           antoine, monica, Tom_Baker, kcoyle, pmurray, rsinger, Jodi,
           jeff_, kai, jneubert, marcia, edsu, michaelp, emma, uldis

    Regrets
           Gordon, Alexander, William, Kevin, Ray, Kim, Daniel

    Chair
           Antoine

    Scribe
           Monica

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]admin
          2. [6]housecleaning
          3. [7]FINAL REPORT
          4. [8]REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUES
      * [9]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <antoine> Previous: 2011-04-14
    [10]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/14-lld-minu
    tes.html

      [10] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/14-lld-minutes.html

    <antoine> Scribe: Monica

    <antoine> Scribenick: monica

    <rsinger> TomB: i note you noting the benefits doc

admin

    <Jodi> TomB: I guess you tried refreshing already?

    <rsinger> somewhere other than the "developers" section?

    RESOLVED: To accept
    [11]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/14-lld-minu
    tes.html

      [11] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/14-lld-minutes.html

    schedule of telcons

    [12]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Telecons

      [12] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Telecons

    antoine: any comments?

    <kai> +1 would have to send regrets otherwise :-)

    <TomB> @rsinger - exited from the document - is there a URL for just
    "viewing" the document?

    <rsinger> TomB: i don't think you can just view it -- i'm not
    editing now, so feel free to go back in

    <TomB> @rsinger - gotta follow the discussion now... - will look at
    it after the call

    antoine:decided telcon on 28 is cancelled

    antoine: Harry Halpin to introduce the newly-launched community
    groups at W3C
    ... will enable inclusion with wider scope of participants
    ... e.g. library community
    ... we should have a couple of weeks to preprare
    ... any questions? now or on list
    ... we will know more once Harry has presented

    <emma> Asia Pacific Telecon on April 28th

    <pmurray> I can pick up scribing.

    <rsinger> antoine: you got all echoey

    <Jodi> yes, there's echo here now too

    <kcoyle> yes, getting echo from you

    <kcoyle> now it's gone

    <TomB>
    [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0044.h
    tml - Asia-Pacific call

      [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0044.html

    <emma> TomB: Asia Pacific telecon will be on 27th / 28th april

    <emma> ... 13 people expected

    <emma> ... agenda will be simple : sections of the report,

    <Jodi> Here's the fixed time for the telcon:
    [14]http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=LLD&iso=201
    10427T21&p1=224&ah=1

      [14] http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=LLD&iso=20110427T21&p1=224&ah=1

    <emma> ... open discussion during at least 20 minutes

    <emma> ... please consider attending even if the time isn't
    convenient, bridge is reserved for 20 or 25 people

FINAL REPORT

    <scribe> ACTION: Digikim to update the transcluded version of the
    report by Wed Apr 13 [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/07-lld-minu
    tes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/07-lld-minutes.html#action06

    Antoine: Kim not here today

    Action --continues

    <Jodi> (Kim just emailed us to say that the transclusion doesn't
    make sense yet, and with regrets.)

    scribe: Benefits
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits

      [16] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits

    <scribe> ACTION: Cluster owners to check the bullet-point list in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits
    reflects their understanding and covers relevant points [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minu
    tes.html#action04]

      [17] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits
      [18] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html#action04

    Antoine: there has only been one comment

    <rsinger> i haven't

    <emma> me neither

    antoine: has there been any other feedback?

    Ross: no

    <TomB> +1 to drop the action

    <rsinger> +1

    <emma> +1

    <pmurray> +1 -- action completed.

    <rsinger> i mean, if they haven't responded yet

    <rsinger> ...

    ACTION CLOSED

    <antoine> ACTION: Cluster owners to check the bullet-point list in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits
    reflects their understanding and covers relevant points [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minu
    tes.html#action04] [DONE]

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits
      [20] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html#action04

    <rsinger> --<BOOM>

    <scribe> ACTION: edsu, emma, rsinger to create narrative text and
    add to bullet-points [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minu
    tes.html#action05] [CONTINUES]

      [21] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html#action05

    <rsinger>
    [22]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vtVG2qAIiLAivwCGdqwNXubrnBpa
    OPnK1ZKxxZAS8qk/edit?hl=en

      [22] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vtVG2qAIiLAivwCGdqwNXubrnBpaOPnK1ZKxxZAS8qk/edit?hl=en

    ross: this has been started on the google doc
    ...any suggestions for how to boil down bullet points?
    ...this is all open for editing, but coming along

    <TomB> ...sorry

    <Zakim> TomB, you wanted to ask about the status of
    [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0044.h
    tml and to ask about the status of
    [24]http://piratepad.net/zsLh4nM3Pg

      [23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0044.html
      [24] http://piratepad.net/zsLh4nM3Pg

    Tom: has this been copied over to the wiki?

    Ross: yes
    ... we only need one more discussion to conclude the deliverable

    Tom: as a liaison from issues group - we think there are some issues
    that need to be introduced earlier

    Ross: The double-edged sword of linked data?

    Ross: To put out call on the mailing list

    <edsu> rsinger++

    Antoine: Relevant technologies

    <scribe> ACTION: Jeff to create a wiki page on "Relevant Technology"
    and link it to the report outline [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-lld-minutes.html#action05] [DONE]

      [25] http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-lld-minutes.html#action05

    IJeff: library-specific technologies - we might be better able to
    write tools if we knew our idioms better

    Karen: what tools are we talking about - tools for programmers,
    metadata developers (e.g. metadata registry)

    <antoine> Discussion at
    [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2011Apr/0072.html

      [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2011Apr/0072.html

    Karen: needs to address those 3 different activities
    ... by breaking it out this way it will point out where the gaps are
    ... Karen offers help with this if needed

    Antoine: notes good progress on this, thanks

    <scribe> ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general
    purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching
    feature (short sketch for final report) [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minu
    tes.html#action04]

      [27] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04

    Antoine: has the issue been addressed?

    Jeff: yes e.g. caching difficult to layer in
    ... but software layering is reflected

    <scribe> ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general
    purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching
    feature (short sketch for final report) [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minu
    tes.html#action04] [DONE]

      [28] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04

    Note on potential lld web services (Kevin, Joachim)
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Web_services_on_LLD

      [29] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Web_services_on_LLD

    Antoine: this was on an action on Joachim to report on progress

    Joachim: we have finished that action, have prepared the wiki page
    ... not so easy for people not acquainted with ?? to use RDF
    ... in lots of situation it is not so easy to provide technology
    ... example of use cases authority data
    ... similar services would support retrieval

    Antoine: can this wiki page fit into the developing technologies
    section?
    ... is it going in the same direction which Karen has described -
    group into categories

    <jeff_> +1

    Antoine: could Joachim input into the categories

    <TomB> +1 to boil down

    joachim: currently too long, would need to be boiled down
    ... on holiday for 2 weeks, difficult to take the action to
    co-ordinate

    Antoine: could Kevin do it?
    ... no formal action recorded until we ask Kevin (Joachim to ask
    him)

housecleaning

    Antoine: skip
    ... due to time constraints

    <kcoyle>
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_
    page

      [30] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page

REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUES

    <Jodi> much better! :)

    Karen: we have two pages linking to each other - issues and
    recommendations
    ... the two pages are important because they become the results

    <pmurray>
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page

      [31] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page

    Karen: what we are saying is what needs to happen
    ... in the group we have talked about posting individual (or small
    groups of related ones)
    ... so that people can comment on it
    ... an outline has already been written, on the wiki there is
    another level of detail
    ... generally the recommendations and issues have been broken out
    into 3 groups
    ... first group is managerial (education, costs)
    ... second group - moving library world out of its silo into a
    future mindset of being collaborative
    ... not just with cultural heritage but at least some input from
    general web community
    ... third category - library standards and practices change
    ... Any input?

    <marcia> very good

    <Zakim> TomB, you wanted to ask if we skipped the ACTION: Gordon and
    Karen, under ISSUES

    Tom: asking about the action on Karen and Gordon

    Karen: I need to check and look at it again
    ... keep the action for now

    <Zakim> emma, you wanted to ask about duplication of effort
    (Management)

    Emma: wondering if this is missing: issue of national libraries
    coordinating effort
    ... is there a role to manage duplicates

    Karen: there is wording on de-duplication but your point is about
    not duplicating the effort

    emma: also need to consider the costs

    <TomB>
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page#Libr
    ary_data_is_highly_redundant_but_lacks_global_identifiers_to_aid_in_
    de-duplication

      [32] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page#Library_data_is_highly_redundant_but_lacks_global_identifiers_to_aid_in_de-duplication

    emma: that would be a management issue

    <pmurray> There is mention in the recommendation about agreement on
    identifiers, which is a form of coordination.

    Karen: that appears to be a co-ordination issue e.g. how to find out
    that software already exists, encourage open source etc
    ... also one thing we don't have here is something about discovery:
    of software, vocabularies Is this management?

    <pmurray>
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_
    page#Identify_vocabularies_that_are_needed_to_support_the_creation_a
    nd_use_of_LLD_.5BJS.5D

      [33] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page#Identify_vocabularies_that_are_needed_to_support_the_creation_and_use_of_LLD_.5BJS.5D

    Karen: or third section
    ... is this a high-level point? do all the sharing so we don't
    duplicate effort?

    Tom: the patterns will point to the vocabularies
    ... thereis a danger in people just using search engines that focus
    on vocabularies
    ... could lead people to use vocabularies in patterns that do not
    match usage patterns
    ... I want to encourage discovery in the context of usage pattern,
    best practice
    ... there are different styles for documenting patterns and the
    community has no agreed way to document patterns

    Ed: we want to encourage good patterns and findability of
    vocabularies

    Tom: it is also important to put vocabularies in context e.g. used
    more in this community

    <Jodi> in a way, you have to be in contact with the community that
    uses a vocabulary in order to understand how it is used...

    Tom: there is overlap and proliferation of vocabularies, alignment
    of vocabularies are needed otherwise new vocabularies will be used
    in the absence of mapping

    Karen: vocabulary alignment is one of the recommendations

    Tom: make them stronger

    Karen: agrees

    Ed: agrees

    Jeff: wanted to mention ontology mapping we can still be
    interoperable without prescribing you must do it this way

    <TomB> ontology mapping = alignments

    Karen: experience from library world is that people standardise and
    share rather than re-invent or grab random things

    <antoine> +1

    <jeff_> +1

    Karen: more concerned about silos - we need to break out of these

    <TomB> note to self: make sure we use the phrase "RDF silo" in this
    section

    <kcoyle>
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page

      [34] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page

    <Jodi> TomB: currently it's in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_
    page#Linking_by_use_of_vocabularies

      [35] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page#Linking_by_use_of_vocabularies

    Karen: to all please make sure that your issues are included here,
    if issues are not in the issues page they will not show up in the
    recommendations
    ... check they are present and expressed as strongly as you think is
    needed

    <TomB> @jodi - ah, I thought it was there somewhere - thanks!

    Antoine: we have use case owners to check the issues list

    Karen: if people find anything missing, it is not too late to add to
    it
    ... not exactly another round, but we need these two pages to be
    representing the best of our thinking on this topic
    ... it is important that everyone in the group feels good about
    these pages

    <Zakim> TomB, you wanted to point out that this is why we want to
    push the individual points out to the mailing list one-by-one for
    comments

    Tom: same point that Karen made, this is why we want to push out
    individual points in digestable pieces and get comments

    Karen: which mailing list?

    <pmurray> I think the community (public) list, too.

    Antoine: would there be overwhelming response?

    Karen: does anyone feel that we should not?

    <pmurray> But when we use the public list, we diminish the chance of
    someone saying "you didn't listen to me!"

    <edsu> +1 for using community list

    Antoine: if you wish to do it does not object

    <Zakim> emma, you wanted to ask about training/education

    Emma: training, education there a number of things in the issues and
    recommendations
    ... wondered if we should be more specific on who needs training in
    the library professionals. everyone?
    ... just cataloguers?
    ... very difficult to say
    ... who does it make sense to train?

    <pmurray> I think understanding the principles is important for
    everyone, but training about the mechanics isn't needed by everyone.

    <TomB> +1 good question on who needs to be trained

    Karen: right now we are at a point that we do not have much to show
    to people e.g. at the reference desk e.g. would not want to show
    them formats

    <TomB> "training the decision-makers" :-)

    Emma: everyone needs to understand benefits

    Karen: do we think training needs to be tailored to needs

    <Zakim> Jodi, you wanted to mention recommendations are likely to be
    most read after executive report

    Jodi: one reason we wanted comments on recommendations/issues was
    that they are most likely to be read, after the executive report

    Jeff: : by making each of the recommendations tweakable - should we
    make a 120 character limit?

    <edsu> lol (on mute)

    laughter

    <TomB> @pmurray lol

    <Jodi> monica: most likely to be read, after the executive report

    Antoine: : any other business?

    <Jodi> bye!

Summary of Action Items

    [DONE] ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general
    purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching
    feature (short sketch for final report) [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minu
    tes.html#action04]
    [DONE] ACTION: Cluster owners to check the bullet-point list in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits
    reflects their understanding and covers relevant points [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minu
    tes.html#action04]
    [CONTINUES] ACTION: Digikim to update the transcluded version of the
    report by Wed Apr 13 [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/07-lld-minu
    tes.html#action06]
    [CONTINUES] ACTION: edsu, emma, rsinger to create narrative text and
    add to bullet-points [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minu
    tes.html#action05]

      [36] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04
      [37] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits
      [38] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html#action04
      [39] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/07-lld-minutes.html#action06
      [40] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html#action05

    [DONE] ACTION: Jeff to create a wiki page on "Relevant Technology"
    and link it to the report outline [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-lld-minutes.html#action05]

      [41] http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-lld-minutes.html#action05

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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