W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-xg-lld@w3.org > November 2010

LLD minutes 2010-11-11

From: Jodi Schneider <jodi.schneider@deri.org>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:16:23 +0000
Message-Id: <802AB40A-E548-49E5-B219-ED53AFCB34B3@deri.org>
To: public-xg-lld <public-xg-lld@w3.org>
Hi everyone,

The minutes of our call today are at 
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/11-lld-minutes.html

A text version follows.

Thanks to Antoine for help with scribing during and after the call!

-Jodi


========
[![W3C][1]][2]

   [1]: http://www.w3.org/Icons/w3c_home

   [2]: http://www.w3.org/

# LLD XG

## 11 Nov 2010

[ Agenda][3]

   [3]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0067.html

See also: [IRC log][4]

   [4]: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-lld-irc

## Attendees

Present

     Thomas Baker (TomB), Alexander Haffner (AlexanderH), Antoine Isaac
(antoine), Asaf Bartov (Asaf), Ed Summers (edsu), Gordon Dunsire (GordonD),
Jeff Young (jeff_), Jodi Schneider (jodi), Kim Viljanen (digikim), Marcia Zeng
(marcia), Michael Panzer (michaelp), Peter Murray (pmurray), William Waites
(ww)

Regrets

    Mark, Ray, Emma, Lars, Jon, Monica, Kai, Oreste, Bernard, Karen, Martin

Chair

    Tom

Scribe

    Jodi

## Contents

  * [Topics][5]

   [5]: #agenda

    1. [Administrative][6]

    2. [CKAN for datasets][7]

    3. [Authority data][8]

    4. [Use Case Methodology][9]

   [6]: #item01

   [7]: #item02

   [8]: #item03

   [9]: #item04

  * [Summary of Action Items][10]

   [10]: #ActionSummary

* * *

### Administrative

<TomB> Previous: [ http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/04
-lld-minutes.html][11]

   [11]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/04-lld-
minutes.html

<antoine> minutes are actually good!

TomB: Propose that we accept last week's minutes. Apologies for technical
difficulties.

<ww> +1

Resolved: To accept the minutes of previous teleconference

### CKAN for datasets

<ww> **Slides on CKAN for LLD: [http://eris.okfn.org/ww/2010/11/ckanlld][12]**

   [12]: http://eris.okfn.org/ww/2010/11/ckanlld

William: CKAN as free software is being used by governments, community groups
and (most interestingly) LOD group to make the LOD cloud diagram. It's
collaboratively developed as a wiki. Various metadata types. Groups are
curated, anyone can create a group, and say which packages should be in a
group, according to criteria.

<edsu> ww++

William: CKAN has RDF export of packages. Extras fields need to be mapped on a
case-by-case basis.

<TomB> +1 for lld group on CKAN

<TomB> +1 for wiki page

William: I suggest creating CKAN LLD group and a wiki page on the XG wiki to
establish our conventions.

Antoine: Bibliographic group ([http://ckan.net/group/bibliographic][13]) would
be an alternative starting point.

   [13]: http://ckan.net/group/bibliographic

<marcia> +1 ww

<jodi> more on CKAN and LOD:[ http://blog.okfn.org/2010/09/03/next-version-of-
the-linked-open-data-cloud-based-on-ckan/][14]

   [14]: http://blog.okfn.org/2010/09/03/next-version-of-the-linked-open-data-
cloud-based-on-ckan/

Antoine: Karen, Jonathan, Ed, Ross and others are admins for the CKAN
Bibliographic group.

<Asaf> but here's an example from that group: -> [http://ckan.net/package
/hungarian-national-library-catalog][15]

   [15]: http://ckan.net/package/hungarian-national-library-catalog

Ed: Two questions: 1) Bibliographic group on CKAN now is not specifically
about LD - just bibliographic data in general. That group might contain
packages referring to open MARC data. 2) Would Richard Cyganiak be ok with our
using the LOD group as a starting point? It already contains many
bibliographic Linked Data sources.

ww: We would need to negotiate with Richard to see whether we're looking for
the same criteria etc.

William: The existing CKAN Bibliographic group is fairly open; Linked Data is
not required.

<AnetteS> can a dataset be in more than one ckan group?

William: We can ask the admins, who are on the call.

Ed: What is the scope? What kind of datasets would we list?

<edsu> here's richard's lodcloud group on ckan:
[http://www.ckan.net/group/lodcloud][16]

   [16]: http://www.ckan.net/group/lodcloud

Marcia: The name 'Bibliographic' data might limit the focus. What about
thesauri, and so on?

<GordonD> Non-bibliographic linked data of interest: circulation data, library
location and directory data ...

<jodi:> edsu: can you quickly pull up the colored cloud, where the blue (or
something) is the library/bib-related? to give a sense of the scope

<edsu> jodi: [ http://richard.cyganiak.de/2007/10/lod/lod-
datasets_2010-09-22_colored.html][17] ?

   [17]: http://richard.cyganiak.de/2007/10/lod/lod-
datasets_2010-09-22_colored.html

<jodi> edsu: thanks, the light green is the part I wanted to point out there.
:)

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to ask whether a dataset is "in" one group or
another, or merely referenced?

Antoine: We're not interested only in bibliographic data. We could have an
included dataset, i.e. we create a set which is automatically added to the LOD
cloud group. Want to include the bibliographic data group. What are the tech
limitations of CKAN? Can we include everything into the LOD cloud?

<edsu> antoine: you can probably use tags to sub divide datasets in a group

Tom: These are overlapping groups. We're not entirely contained in either CKAN
group: LOD or Bibliographic. Can we reference existing datasets in CKAN? If
so, let's create our own list and reference anything already described in the
LOD and Bibliographic CKAN groups. Then we wouldn't have to worry so much
about...

William: Could be in any number of packages. No inclusion/subsetting
relations, but we can look into how to do that.

Antoine: Different colors in LOD, Richard wanted help subclassing.

<edsu> tomb++

<scribe> **ACTION:** William: to summarize options for using CKAN to the list,
before next concall [recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-lld-
minutes.html#action01][18]]

   [18]: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-lld-minutes.html#action01

<GordonD> We could invert the approach - what in LOD is of interest to LLDXG?

<antoine> GordonD+ - that's what I'd like to have: "tagging" some LOD sets
with something like a "LLD" tag

### Authority data

TomB: Jeff and Alexander - assess progress on analyzing the clusters. How far
have we gotten? We've made lots of attempts to visualize connections between
things. Must hack through the thickets and move towards segments of a draft
report. The 7 months we have left are going to zip by in a flash. We need to
have chunks of text to review for a draft.

Jeff: Alexander and I have started a dialogue through email about the
problems. Must convince each other that the patterns exist. There are 6-7 of
them (LCSH is the disputed one.) 5 are descriptions of datasets--authority
data we want to express in Linked Data. The other one, enrichment, is more of
a meta case.


Enrichment is nice: to explore what these use cases have in common. SKOS is a
nice level of abstraction -- naming. Not clear why there's tension about
naming. Some things are attached to the name, some are attached to the thing.
I can imagine using SKOS but it's not the only way to do that. Would like to
explore that with VIAF with the contributors, to get comfortable with it,
explore alternatives.


The FRBR point of view is different. Side-by-side comparison of the two
perspectives -- each with their strengths and weaknesses. Certain classes of
things appear to be in alignment, but I'm reluctant to merge them. As we go
on, the differences will become apparent. I think the comparison/contrast will
help.

Alexander: We already discussed merging. Beyond the library point of view: we
are interested in real world things (and highly structured info) about persons
and corporate bodies. ... distinguish between two people with the same name.
Biographical information in the background. ... Perspective *between*
libraries. Need to align, enrich Linked Data. Local datasets, or link to
existing external ones.

1) Reuse of data between libraries

2) How non-library world can reuse our library data

... Need SKOS: these are the ontologies used outside of libraries. We have to
follow both tracks (reuse within and outside libraries).

<marcia> +1 Jeff for seperating the thing from the labels of the thing. This
model applies to names of people and corporate boday, as well as to others,
such as concepts, works.

Alexander: To exchange our data with the outside world, we need the
infrastructure to exchange WITHIN libraries. Otherwise it's really difficult
to establish the second (outside libraries) track.

TomB: Reuse of data between libraries? Do we assume that this will be LOD?

Tom: What kind of difficulties are you talking about in reusing--agreeing on
descriptive properties to use, or -- the technical details?

Alexander: both the properties and the infrastructure

... Right now, MARC is how we exchange data. RDA can only succeed with the LD
data structure. RDA as a cataloging structure is all about the linking of
data.

... For RDA to work, a good infrastructure is needed.

Jeff: The idea of exchanging data is worth discussing. In the MARC paradigm
we're exchanging records.

... In the LD world, it's not clear. Caching is different from exchange.

<TomB> +1 with Jeff re: "exchanging" metadata - that's exactly what I was
trying to get at

Alexander: Not the physical exchange, the reuse of existing data in my system.

<GordonD> I suspect the VIAF use case is the key uc in the authority data
cluster. It covers interoperability of data between libraries and external
communities; but needs to be extended to LLD of individual authority files.

Alexander: If I have a cataloging system or the front-end (e.g. OPAC), the
user can search on a number of Linked Data sets.

<marcia> I can understand Alex

Alexander: With LD, can search on a worldwide set of data. So it's reuse, not
exchange.

<GordonD> That is, we should perhaps look at the application of FRAD/FRSAD at
the local level, and its interaction with VIAF namespace at the aggregated
level.

<Asaf> GordonD++

Jeff: How this gets represented as a product of our (Alex+my) understanding.
There's some danger of our imagining what use case authors are doing, without
enough detail.


If there are no principles--or insufficiently strong principles--it's a mess.


Use FOAF, RDA, FRBR... we should encourage that but it's more fundamental.
They should be interoperable, outside of the modeling choices.


Things need to be interoperable. It's not just about choosing patterns that we
agree are the 'right patterns'.

<GordonD> +1 Jeff's suggestion that there is something more fundamental to be
uncovered.

<marcia> +1 Jeff +GordonD

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to ask if we are talking about a need for patterns to
follow?

Antoine: I wondered at first --Do you think it's that the use cases are
insufficiently documented? -- in which case you could ask the use case owners.
But it sounds like it's more about the patterns.

Jeff: I suspect that they haven't thought about the details of which vocabs,
patterns they'd use. I'm not sure that brings us more info.

Tom: I think we're talking about patterns. I'd like to circle around to what
the product is.


What will this cluster produce? It seems you have a really rich vein of issues
and you're teasing them out well. I can imagine a 2-3 page section discussing
the different design choices/patterns, citing the different use cases.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can imagine that you're pretty far along
towards writing up something like that.


Other products... Clusters are normalizing use cases. You're talking about
interacting with the use case authors. Do you see tweaking the use case
descriptions and interacting with the use case authors as part of the outcome?

Jeff: What if we annotated the use cases to focus on certain points?

<antoine> +1

Jeff: 2-3 pages of design points and patterns, and then annotate to point out
alternative patterns...

<marcia> +1 Jeff

Tom: Yes. And 2-3 pages is not a magic number. But 10 is too many: We don't
want to write a book in the next 7 months. Writing it down will help.

... Want the design choices and patterns listed, so that the alternatives are
clear.

... Want to look beyond that: Where is the work? Which problems have the
highest priority? Where do we recommend that people pay attention and focus
resources moving forward in order to resolve the issues?

Antoine: I support that.

Tom: If you can rough out an analysis, even as an outline, and push it to the
list, that would be great.

### Use Case Methodology

TomB: Too many overlapping categories on the wikis. Clusters, Topics, Goals,
Requirements, Vocabularies, Developments/Curation/Use, Summary. (May want to
publish summaries with annotation in an appendix.)

Tom: How can we most efficiently visualize and make the connections between
clusters, topics, goals, requirements? So that people can refer to these
easily as writing? A report is the ultimate goal.

... We had Paul Walk's clustering using a database and tools, we have a table
that tries to cross-reference use cases. We have various tools. Jodi has
pointed out that the wiki allows us to leverage clusters. And to use something
called transclusion, that allows bits of text to be dynamically included into
the wiki pages that you see.

[http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Transclusion_Test][19]

   [19]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Transclusion_Test

Jodi: a bit of text at the top ... text at the bottom comes from other pages

<Jodi:> To Transclude a page, invoke its title like this: {{:Use Cases}}. You
can get more info from [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Transclusion MediaWiki
help].

> <br> If we want to include category contents, as well as descriptions, we
[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1050853/transclude-a-category-in-mediawiki
may need a plugin].

> <br> ----

> ==Category LLD Description==<br> {{:Category:LLD}}

> <br> ==Topics we Discussed==

> {{:TopicsDiscussed}}<br>

> <p>

Jodi: citing the name of the page you want to include is enough to trigger
text inclusion

<pmurray> This is a nice way to automate the process of brining things
together.

<antoine> +1

Tom: anybody has experience?

<pmurray> This is the first I've seen of this feature of Mediawiki, but I like
what it has done.

<Asaf> I have some experience with the feature.

<pmurray> I think some explanatory text at the top of the page on how to edit
content on the page would be all that is needed.

Tom:it's interesting. I'm slightly worried about interaction between pages

<Asaf> pmurray++

<digikim> perhaps the transcluded parts could be bigger, "chapter size"...

Tom:... and people looking at the page that's being included in the
transclusion page

<jodi>In the edit screen, the pages used (transcluded in) are also linked
underneath "Templates used on this page".

Tom: ... we would need one or two owners for the transclusion pages to check
that the linking is done correctly

<digikim> from the report point of view, defining the TOC would be a good way
to organize this...

Tom: I like it but it looks a little confusing to work with in practice.

Tom: what would be the alternative?

<antoine> ... alternative would be one big page

Tom: anyone have an alternate opinion?

<digikim> antoine: ...or a page divided in ca. 10 transcluded parts

<Asaf> I say let's give it a shot and see how it goes.

<TomB> can you still hear me?

<jodi> yes

<digikim> yes

<marcia> yes

<GordonD> + 1 for transclusion

<AnetteS> +1 for transclusion

<antoine> +1

<pmurray> +1 to try it; it seems easy enough to try and we can back off to
manual processes if it doesn't work

<digikim> +1 for (big part) transclusion :)

<michaelp> +1 for bigger but fewer chunks

Tom: Ed you are skeptical?

Ed: I'm not strongly for or against. Personally I'd personally prefer to focus
on the report. I'm not sure it will help write the report

Tom: I'm making the assumption that anything transcluded would be a
subsection/paragraph in final report. I don't see us having us products that
don't make it in the final report. If a topic has topic page and is
transcluded in a discussion page, I'd like this page being transfered into a
section with some paragraphs explaining what topics are. Each topic should
have someone's attention.

Tom: Everything that has a wiki page transcluded should make it to the report
as a paragraph/sub-section

<jodi>it's hard to know what the report will be until we outline it

<edsu> seems like most people were in favor TomB

Tom:Seems we need to move and have an outline of the report

Tom: Jodi, if I understand well it seems that the transclusion is useful for
creating a structure. It allows us to re-shuffle an entire section easily.

Jodi: yes

Tom: almost at the top of the hour. Our next task should be to move towards an
outline of the report, to help us focus our attention. We should have a key
person for each section

<marcia> I like the way we had today, to focus on one cluster each time

<GordonD> +1 marcia

<antoine> [ADJOURNED]

<digikim> thanks

<AnetteS> bye

<edsu> adios :-)

## Summary of Action Items

**[NEW]** **ACTION:** William: to summarize options for using CKAN to the
list, before next concall [recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-lld-
minutes.html#action01][20]]


**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general
purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature
[recorded in [ http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-
minutes.html#action04][21]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** Karen and Emma to curate archive cluster for end of
december [recorded in [
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action02][22]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** Antoine and Michael to curate vocabulary alignment
cluster for end of december [recorded in [
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action07][23]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** Emma and Antoine to create use case DATA.SEARCH-
OPTIMIZATION [recorded in [
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-
minutes.html#action06][24]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data
cluster for end of december [recorded in [
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action05][25]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** GordonD and antoine to study use cases that relate
to vocabulary merging use case [recorded in [
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-
minutes.html#action01][26]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** Jeff and Alexander to curate authority data cluster
for end of december [recorded in [
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action06][27]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** Jeff to review the UK eGovernment document on
identifiers. [recorded in [
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-
minutes.html#action03][28]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** Kai and Ed to curate citations cluster for end of
december [recorded in [
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action03][29]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** Mark (and Jodi and Asaf) to curate digital objects
cluster for end of december [recorded in [
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action04][30]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** for each use case champion: on the Vocabularies
page, link to each URL use case that uses it [recorded in [
http://www.w3.org/2005/mIncubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action01][31]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** People who didn't attend the face-to-face should
volunteer to shepherd a new use case. [recorded in
[http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-minutes.html#action06][32]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** People who were not at the face-to-face meeting
volunteer to join a cluster [recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-
minutes.html#action03][33]]

**[PENDING]** **ACTION:** on everyone to update the Events page
([http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/LLD/Events][34]) on the wiki regularly
[recorded in [ http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-
minutes.html#action05][35]]


**[DONE]** **ACTION:** Jodi to make a proof of concept transclusion page for
next week [recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-lld-
minutes.html#action09][36]]

**[DONE]** **ACTION:** ww to present on how to use CKAN [recorded in
[http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-minutes.html#action01][37]]


[End of minutes]

   [20]: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-lld-minutes.html#action01

   [21]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-
minutes.html#action04

   [22]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action02

   [23]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action07

   [24]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-
minutes.html#action06

   [25]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action05

   [26]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-
minutes.html#action01

   [27]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action06

   [28]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-
minutes.html#action03

   [29]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action03

   [30]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action04

   [31]: http://www.w3.org/2005/mIncubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-
minutes.html#action01

   [32]: http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-minutes.html#action06

   [33]: http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-minutes.html#action03

   [34]: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/LLD/Events

   [35]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-
minutes.html#action05

   [36]: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-lld-minutes.html#action09

   [37]: http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-minutes.html#action01

* * *

Minutes formatted by David Booth's [ scribe.perl][38] version 1.135 ([CVS
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$Date: 2010/11/11 17:47:37 $

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