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RWApp Game Requirements (draft 0.1)

From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:07:37 +0000
To: public-xg-app-backplane@w3.org
Message-Id: <20081229200613.M55471@hicom.net>

aloha!

as discussed during the last RWAB XG conference call

http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html
http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-irc

the idea of creating a demo application in the form of a game would 
make a perfect demo app;

this post is the first of 2, each intended to spark discussions, so 
that we can begin actual work on the deliverable as soon as 
possible...  the first post (this post) is a VERY primative attempt 
to capture "RWA Game Requirements"; a proposal for such an app will 
follow as a separate post:

__________________________________________________________________________

RWApp Game Requirements (draft 0.1)

1. must be interactive;

2. must be accessible (something that is not modality specific);

2. must be time-sensitive -- for example, a user must accomplish a task 
   or multiple tasks within given allotment of time; 

3. your personal/favorite RWApp Game requirements
__________________________________________________________________________

---------- Original Message -----------
From: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>
To: public-xg-app-backplane@w3.org
Sent: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:26:42 +0000
Subject: minutes: RWAB XG call 2008-12-16

> aloha!
> 
> minutes from today's RWAB XG weekly teleconference can be found
> online as hypertext at:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html
> 
> as an IRC log at:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-irc
> 
> and as plain text, following my signature...  as usual, please 
> log any corrections, clarifications, misattributions and the 
> like by replying-to this announcement on-list...
> 
> expansions for the minutes is as follows:
>  * JJ = Jack Jansen;
>  * CW = Charlie Wiecha;
>  * GJR = Gregory J. Rosmaita;
> 
> more info about the SVGIG discussed during the call is available 
> at:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/Main_Page
> 
> and
> 
> http://planetsvg.com
> 
> the "virtual weather station" proposal is archived at:
> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-
backplane/2008Dec/0006.html
> 
> and the OpenSocial proposal from Dan Brickley (danbri) on which 
> he and i will be collaborating is archived at:
> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Feb/0004.html
> 
> thank you, gregory.
> 
>     _________________________________________________________________
> 
>                                  - DRAFT -
> 
>                                RWAB telecon
> 
> 16 Dec 2008
> 
> Agenda:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-
backplane/2008Dec/0012.html
> 
> See also:
>   * IRC log: http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-irc
> 
> Attendees
> 
>   Present
>          CharlieWiecha, Gregory_Rosmaita, jackjansen
> 
>   Regrets
>          John_Boyer
> 
>   Chair
>          CharlieWiecha
> 
>   Scribe
>          Gregory_Rosmaita
> 
> Contents
> 
>     * Topics
>         1. Where Do We Want to/Need to Go?
>         2. Target Audience
>     * Summary of Action Items
>     _________________________________________________________________
> 
> Where Do We Want to/Need to Go?
> 
>   CW: participation thin; worried that not high enough 
> priority; may be   don't have a precise enough deliverable   
> ... spirit of outline i circulated -- had hoped would do more   
> technical/application work   ... how to get prototyping ideas 
> to "product" either real or   roadmapped on wiki; who are we 
> targetting and how to go after them
> 
> Target Audience
> 
>   JJ: note also shows an issue i've encountered myself; on 1 level
>   identified some areas and technologies that are out there and 
> allow   people to create RWAB; if was to create something 
> tomorrow, would be   lost -- haven't created list of what to do 
> or roadmap "if you want to   produce a RWA look here and here 
> and here"   ... disconnected bag of technologies now -- need to 
> integrate -- here   is what there is, here is how use it; then 
> decide, document or   deliverable (library) that they can 
> relate to and use
> 
>   CW: who is it we are trying to sell that to -- the 
> implementor? the   strategist? what level of descriptino -- 
> conceptual or nuts-and-bolts
> 
>   JJ: something Pablo reminded me is that XGs can spawn working 
> groups;   aiming for people to attract ot become members of WG
> 
>   CW: never shared that feeling; my PoV is trying to connect dots;
>   cross-cutting technologies; W3C lacks cross-cutting vision
>   ... still some nuts-and-bolts oriented, but not particularly 
> a WG
> 
>   JJ: don't see clearcut WG coming out of this XG
> 
>   CW: who is at center of what we are doing?
> 
>   JJ: on other hand, if at end of XG life what is left is a document
>   that shows people on various levels, where they should look 
> for W3C   and related standard techs that will help solve 
> problems, fill needs
> 
>   CW: would be quite useful;
>   ... people outside industry don't know about a lot of the existing
>   technologies; roadmap to assembly has yet to be drawn
>   ... HTML container DTD; XForms controller; SVG - graphics 
> engine; SMIL   - timing mechanism; XML Events   ... currently 
> each individual has to connect the dots for herself   ... no 
> one has assembled everything and ordered it and put lipstick on 
>   it
> 
>   JJ: you are looking at it from managerial PoV
>   ... haven't had to create -- you are lead of team and have clear
>   vision of what silverlight can do -- how to use it with scripting
>   ... roughly follow CW's outline
>   ... also think that document on more component level would 
> also be   good to have   ... joe-web-designer plays with XHTML 
> and CSS and XForms and now needs   to tie together; 90% chance 
> now that will use javascript to do what   needed, when there 
> are technologies more declaratively designed, that   should be used
> 
>   CW: set of patterns that are available to people in a 
> repository that   they can use   ... a cookbook -- here is a 
> set of read-made examples
> 
>   JJ: examples before february?
> 
>   CW: no; just trying to nail down our specific audience
>   ... reason having conversation is because concerned that if i 
> write   the document, it will be a tree falling in the woods
> 
>   JJ: cookbook may be aiming too high -- would be happy if 
> describe each   technology in a nutshell to at least encourage 
> people to look at   technology; documents such as stevenP's 
> "XHTML for HTML Authors" --   great model; gives enough of 
> feeling of technology to encourage it's   use
> 
>   CW: could be fleshed out
>   ... use steveP's note as pattern
>   ... timing, SVG - canvas from API PoV, but SVG promotion important
> 
>   JJ: both SVG and XForms have disadvantage that they are small
>   technology that does one thing; big specs but tackling 
> limited set of   questions; we are tackling a huge questio, 
> should show when 5 ways of   doing something appropriate using 
> standards/W3C based techs   ... now that we are talking, though 
> wondering if should do a demo app?
> 
>   CW: was going to say that -- best way to lead authors to info 
> they   need
> 
>   GJR: danbri and i are going to ARIA enable OpenSocial to make 
> a   virtual visually impaired computer users group - could incorporate
>   other techs
> 
>   CW: can't really pin them down; big picture not compelling
> 
>   JJ: in a way, people are right; each technology in its own 
> field is   nice, but conflicts with other techs; we should 
> emphasize integration   ... over past year become convinced 
> that have something nice for   integration, but how to 
> communicate to outside world that helps real   people solve 
> real issues
> 
>   CW: integration is the core part; not just "piling on" specs, 
> but   mixing technologies; not widget, but single document with 
> data,   controller, SVG -- blend of technologies
> 
>   JJ: demo app -- aiming for complex demo apps because in real 
> life will   be using these things in complex situatns, but 
> shouldn't we be shaping   world what a rich web app IS   ... 
> show in such a way that integration present and professional can 
>   realize integration issues herre -- if do in flash, will 
> become   inaccessible
> 
>   CW: break down integration problem into series of rich fragments
>   ... comes back to patterns idea; illustrate aspects of integration
>   ... as JJ said, how to add timing to group of controls
>   ... how to add validation to a group of data items
> 
>   JJ: where we shine is integration; should aim for something - 
> single   app that shows everything, even if just a toy app
> 
>   CW: built out of progressive exposure; break down into components
> 
>   JJ: depends on app
> 
>   CW: how one explains what it is itself - look at from data 
> PoV,   control PoV, timing integration
> 
>   JJ: somebody came up with app
> 
>   GJR: virtual weather station
>   ... could work with professor who proposed it; use student's work
> 
>   CW: harvest out of them best practice
>   ... separate or collaborate
> 
>   GJR: that would be up to you as chair
>   ... can contact prof and ascertain what stage is at what doing
> 
>   <scribe> ACTION: Gregory - contact proffesor about virtual 
> SVG weather   station [recorded in   
> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html#action01]
> 
>   CW: if do this, any chairs of existing WGs at W3C pay 
> attention to it?   any AJAX authors pay attention to it?   ... 
> IG may come out of this work to perform evangelizing
> 
>   GJR: plus one
>   ... explains SVGIG aggregator site
> 
>   CW: shoot for jump-starting content with IG proposal - what would
>   attract people
>   ... example app needs to be motivating
> 
>   JJ: why not implement server side -- what is advantage of 
> serving as   app
> 
>   GJR: if i were to implement in real life, i would definitely handle
>   things server side
> 
>   JJ: data aggregating is anonymous data - GPS position - if 
> need data   from source a and data from source b but don't want 
> the one to know   i'm using the other...   ... reason to do 
> web app is combining data from 2 sources: information   on bank 
> account should be secure, info about another private source (a 
>   store) don't want bank to harvest purchasing habits and don't 
> want   store to know banking bussiness would do
> 
>   as web app
> 
>   CW: downside: not much input flavor
>   ... not capturing input, or serving rich data
>   ... leave app choice to later; if trying to populate IG as 
> outcome of   XG, what would be tools IG should maintain
> 
>   GJR: aggregation site like planetsvg.com
> 
>   CW: motivate people to participate, have to have something to 
> spark   their interest   ... would really like to build something
> 
>   JJ: thinking of apps, should we think of a game?
>   ... simple games have a bit of secrecy -- info don't want to 
> reveal to   peers
> 
>   GJR: like JJ's idea
> 
>   CW: input as well as output
>   ... could start with "game" broadly as generalization
>   ... multiple server side pieces, multiple client side pieces,
>   distributed devices
> 
>   JJ: virtual world games logic done centrally, rendering done client
>   side; want ability to "hide" what you are doing locally
>   ... direct feedback equal better user experience
> 
>   CW: lot of potential
> 
>   GJR: very good idea - timing of actions in game
> 
>   CW: what would be good game to model
> 
>   JJ: strong point of RWA as opposed to Flash and on the other hand
>   organization wide server-side, client-side; strong points of solution?
>   can we think of game that highlights strong points?
> 
>   CW: game requirements: countdown timer, ability to move 
> around, ARIA   live regions, mash-up
> 
>   GJR: talks about danbri and openSocial - will post more to list
> 
>   CW: richness of open social?
>   ... think about OpenSocial, games
> 
>   GJR: OpenSocial probably a longer term project
> 
>   CW: discuss potential of games on list
> 
>   JJ: upcoming meetings?
> 
>   CW: this will be last of year
> 
>   JJ: can do next week, but not week after
> 
>   CW: take poll on list - if not, then sixth
> 
>   ADJOURN
> 
> Summary of Action Items
> 
>   [NEW] ACTION: Gregory - contact proffesor about virtual SVG weather
>   station [recorded in
>   http://www.w3.org/2008/12/16-backplane-minutes.html#action01]
> 
>   [End of minutes]
>     _________________________________________________________________
------- End of Original Message -------
Received on Monday, 29 December 2008 20:08:18 GMT

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