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Re: minutes: Backplane XG call, 12 August 2008 [draft]

From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 01:50:45 +0100
To: Charles F Wiecha <wiecha@us.ibm.com>
Cc: public-xg-app-backplane@w3.org
Message-Id: <20080813004214.M61903@hicom.net>

aloha, charlie!

the problem, as usual, is with the human side of the HCI -- i 
hand typed the URIs into the post without double-checking them 
for accuracy, and since i am calendrically impaired (until we 
aria-enable the calendar picker widget, at least) i mistook the 
12th of august for the 11th of august -- hence, the correct URIs 
are:

http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html

and

http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-irc

and, for good measure, the full minutes are included in the body of 
this post for convenience's sake...  i think i need to significantly 
increase my daily allotment of caffeine, and perhaps even defragment 
my brain...

just more proof -- as if any were needed that one can never fully 
account for the H in HCI...

apologies for the confusion,
gregory.
----------------------------------------------------------------
CONSERVATIVE, n.  A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them 
with others.         -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
----------------------------------------------------------------
             Gregory J. Rosmaita, oedipus@hicom.net
  Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------


                                   - DRAFT -

                          Backplane XG Teleconference

12 Aug 2008

Agenda:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0006.html

   See also: IRC log - http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Charlie, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jack_Jansen, John_Boyer,
          Peter_Thomas, Rahul, Steven 

   Regrets
          Kevin_Kelly, Uli [inserted into email record only]

   Chair
          Charles_Wiecha

   Scribe
          Gregory_Rosmaita

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Introductions & Agenda Additions/General Comments
         2. Rahul's Calendar Picker Example
         3. Approach to AJAX
         4. XForms Model and UI controls in SMIL
     * Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________________



   <Charlie> thx

   <Charlie> thx

   <scribe> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

   <scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus

   <Charlie> you the man!

   <Charlie> you bet

   "the ability to cause assistive technology (AT) to speak. By using
   WAI-ARIA, AxsJAX is able to manipulate the DOM such that an ARIA-aware
   browser plus assistive technology (AT) combination will generate and
   receive the necessary events which cause the AT to speak what the web
   developer wishes to be spoken. "

   <Charlie> yes, was just reading the AxsJAX stuff

   <Charlie> on google code

   good

   <Charlie> this is raman's work?

   of course!

   <Charlie> sure

   the key is that we are planning on using ARIA enabled tools: dojo
   supports ajax, and YUI also is integrating aria support

   <Charlie> would like to understand better what that means

   <Charlie> devil is in the details...

   if it is built-in from the start, then the level of accessibilty is
   much higher than if an overlay or middleware has to intervene

   <Charlie> we might have a really nice story in the use of xforms in
   dojo with the ubiquity approach

   <Charlie> i.e. providing the accessibility DOM from the outset as an
   authored artifact

   <Charlie> rather than built after the fact and exposed

   <Charlie> not sure if any of this makes sense

   basically, scripted objects don't have keyboard support or
   navigational flow - ARIA allows an AT to interact with an embedded
   widget

   agree re: ubiquity approach with dojo

   <Charlie> maybe we can look at the custom control that rahul has built
   in yui over the last few weeks...for calendars and color picking

   yes!

   <Charlie> then talk about how it could be made accessible using aira
   in dojo/xforms

   i also know the head of yahoo accessibility, victor tsaran

   <Charlie> cool

   basically, ARIA keeps embedded objects and widgets from being
   perceptual black holes, and allows user interaction with the
   object/widget by bi-lateral communication between the DOM, ARIA and an
   AT (assistive technology)

   it's something that was needed 5 years ago - we didn't know how long
   the development process would take

   ARIA in Gmail Blog:
   http://www.marcozehe.de/2008/08/04/aria-in-gmail-1-alerts/

   we had google reps at the last ARIA sub-committee meeting to discuss
   ARIA issues that they have uncovered in deployment

   minutes are at: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/11-pf-minutes.html

   <Charlie> thx...will check that out, sounds like it's the kind of
   feedback that is very helpful

   <Charlie> which WG is doing ARIA?

   protocols & formats: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF

   http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-primer/

   <Charlie> thx

   latest editor's drafts -- made public to assist in troubleshooting

   http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria - the ARIA spec itself

   WAI-ARIA Roadmap (editor's draft) -
   http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-roadmap

   WAI-ARIA Best Practices: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices

   just added some resources to my proto-page - weba11y.org which is
   maintained by becky gibson of IBM and a dojo development team leader
   and point-person for accessibility (a11y)

   <Charlie> here's the link to the calendar html source that rahul will
   show:

   <Charlie>
   http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/y
   ui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html

   http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/app-backplane/wiki/User_talk:GJR#Deve
   lopers.27_Resources

   thanks -- i'll check it out now

   <Charlie> it should come up and run directly off that URL

   loading as we type..

   <Charlie> k

   problem 1: there is no explicit "Submit" mechanism - this is a WCAG
   1.0/2.0 violation

   http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag10

   http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag20

   <Charlie> doubt this page actually does anything other than show the
   calendars...

   ah

   <Charlie> it's to illustrate the code as being checked into the
   ubiquity project

   <Charlie> hi steven!

   still, would be good to make sure the example is WCAG compliant

   aloha, steven!

   <Steven> hi

   <Steven> scribing on another call right now

   <Charlie> let's map out a demo for this XG to do that

   <Charlie> that we can then show at the tech plenary

   wunderbar!

   <Charlie> LOL

   recorded demos of ARIA in ACTION:
   http://www.weba11y.com/demos/index.html

   <Steven> ½½ for Gregory's copy buffer

   thanks - er, danke

Introductions & Agenda Additions/General Comments

   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/00
   06.html

   <Charlie>
   http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/y
   ui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html

   <Charlie>
   http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/y
   ui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html

   <Charlie> Agenda:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/00
   06.html

   CW: GJR and i have been chatting about ARIA and accessibility
   ... want to move towards planning set of demos for tech plenary

   <Steven> rssagent, make log public

   CW: need to get back to Debi Dahl and identify other WGs we want to
   meet with
   ... start with rahul's demo
   ... segue from custom control to ARIA stuff - custom control
   accessibility
   ... abstract UI control tree might support ARIA enabling
   ... JJ read paper last night - didn't know about Mark Birbeck's SMIL
   work
   ... scripting limitations of SMIL
   ... agenda addenda?

Rahul's Calendar Picker Example

   http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/y
   ui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html

   CW: platforms? using mac

   GJR: using FF3.01 with JAWS9 on WinXP Pro9

   GJR will try later with orca (GNOME screen reader) and FF3.01

   CW: shall i use web dialogs?

   JJ: doesn't work in safari -- doesn't crash it, but nothing happens

   <Charlie>
   http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/calendar/_samples/y
   ui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html

   CW: don't think will work with Safari and Opera

   Rahul: calendar control exposed as xforms input or xforms range -
   airline reservation scenario
   ... started with YUI library - object, leverage YUI widgets and add
   ubiquity-xform
   ... 3 custom controls - reason for 3 variants is to explore xforms
   markup - one uses CSS class, one uses datatype and one uses XForms
   appearance attribute
   ... could come from different AJAX libraries; using xforms model to
   tie together across AJAX libraries (backplane end of it)
   ... can do variants by tweaking appearance -- popup calendar, standing
   calendar
   ... just started with this excercise

   Charlie: current value in data model that you are bound to, can edit
   from either direction

   Rahul: since using data bindings provided by xforms model - if look at
   source, very little application code to perform synchronization; using
   AJAX library YUI provides bindings; still need application mode

   CW: using ubiquity model all UI provided by YUI framework
   ... xforms controls in play, AJAX doing custom widget rendering; child
   of xforms control
   ... if look at DOM, separate label for xforms, child container element
   for what is needed by AJAX library which perfoms rendering
   ... tying to accessibility, dives down below visible markup; factors
   DOM in running browser; interaction and data binding used for
   presentational purposes, will be easy to integrate ARIA interfaces

Approach to AJAX

   CW: abstract UI control good starting point for adding ARIA to support
   assistive technology
   ... illustrates use case - ubiquity approach via AJAX in sub-trees,
   could be leveraged for accessibility
   ... any questions/comments on controls?

   GJR: lack of explicit submit mechanism for form (WCAG violation)

   JB: hangs my machine

   Rahul: can try locally -- incredibly faster

   JJ: if inspect dom via FF, first control has input stuff, but where is
   calendar input
   ... if walk through DOM tree see input control, but no trace of the
   calenar inputs

   Rahul: in FireBug go to HTML tag
   ... open BODY and will find TABLE in there; expand that

   JJ: table incomplete -- only first column before variable tag
   ... ah, hidden in different place then i thought they'd be
   ... table with 1 row that happens to stack

   CW: ARIA makes distinction between A11y DOM and UA DOM; additional
   level of tree stucture; why isn't this abstract UI tree in XForms?
   giving authoring story to provide community

   http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#tree

   http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#treegrid

   i think i need to call back in

   <Steven> we hear you

   <Charlie> k

   <Steven> JohnBoyer: I still use IE 3.2

   <Steven> :-p

   <John_Boyer> I want to make sure we still have Opera compatibility!

   http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/#grid

   CW: think about xf namespace elements are where properties are
   ... intuition - hiding calendar is clean -- does accessibilty make
   cleaner
   ... should we take further to ascertain how accessibility cna be
   obtained

   JJ: like what i hear - doesn't mess up DOM, IDs all there -- much
   better

   CW: shadowing - XBL something like this
   ... demo ideal for the point that can work today - AJAX implementation
   plus ARIA could provide support for xforms on today's browsers - good
   to take to WAI and Forms at Tech Plenary
   ... make sense to follow up with GJR - working on simple load form to
   illustrate simple app - not only nice looking form that runs in YUI
   and/or AJAX

   ??: calendaring important - may need more work

   CW: part of GUI aspect of form

   GJR: if have access to code, can ARIA enable

   best ARIA test suite so far: http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/

   CW: get discussion going on list - can point to form fragments, and
   add ARIA support to them

   John_Boyer: loan form - how do you tell someone who cannot see
   something that is not relevant and now visible?
   ... if type principal for loan, not enough info - need to set duration
   of loan - still need to calculate interest rate; when entered enough
   info, can show you something you couldn't do before

   CW: map between XForms and ARIA

   GJR: will provide list of ARIA derived from XForms

   CW: mapping between ubiquity events and control - core javascript
   behavior in ubiquity that is ARIA enabled

XForms Model and UI controls in SMIL

   CW: interesting notion of data model extension serving as UI for SMIL
   agent to drive dynamic properties and synchronize

   JJ's background paper:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/00
   05.html

   CW: wanted to highlight need for custom loop code to drive the google
   map API
   ... MarkB has example using XBL - can reuse that - uses data model and
   UI into googlemap logic; set of xforms elements that handles all
   google map info; on SMIL side, have xforms control as well; can use
   ubiquity to add databinding into bicycle tour

   JJ: back up one step - idea started as way of getting state in model;
   evolving into SMIL execution model - declarative, unlike javascript;
   trying to see how a declarative execution model enable a certain
   classs of applicatinos without using javascript
   ... always will be apps that need javascript, but large number of
   places where could use SMIL plus data model; applications can then be
   transformed, accessified - can do what you can't do in the javascript
   black hole

   CW: showed in paper SMIL and XForms components

   JJ: map feature - googlemaps part of problem - modifying text in HTML
   - if xforms output can be used, once data model changes, can change
   visible text on page but cannot change the URI of a link
   ... hoping to use XBL - but no XBL for Safari
   ... screen shots on page 2 - can't change link via xforms - so little
   bit of javascript that smashes value from data model into HREF of
   anchor
   ... for my types of apps, if have attribute value templates - in any
   attribute value, can put xforms expression in curly braces and gets
   evaluated at runtime

   CW: could have same result as rahul

   JJ: then have to tell stylesheets that though this is not an anchor
   tag, should use formatting defined for anchor

   CW: Ubiquity SMIL project Mark Birbeck is running?

   JJ: no

   CW: just found out about it recently

   GJR: notes that safari being ARIA enabled

   JJ: have to look at how much of SMIL is implemented for type of demos
   want to sho
   ... would solve plugin problem when viewing demo

   GJR: http://juicystudio.com/article/safari-support-aria.php

   CW: will post SMIL ubiquity info on list

   <Charlie> http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-smil/

   JJ: research work is "done" from one point of view; from another
   deployable, anything deployable should advance the work

   CW: compelling point in paper is data driven API - show how Mark done
   from maps side and JJ from SMIL side - add to list of tech plenary
   demos?

   JJ: wouldn't mind doing demo, but participation in person a big if
   ... if ubiquity-smil code can help me with more depth - video
   synchronization; smil plugin for safari

   CW: limitations

   JB: ubiquity is targetting safari as well
   ... won't be long, but might not be soon enough

   JJ: understand: FF would be nicer platform, but in Safari, get binding
   integration free - not available in FF - anyone know of javascript
   bridge for FF?

   <jackjansen> Javascript <-> Python, that is...

   CW: next week: set of demos that can take to tech plenary - calendar
   picker and JJ's demo
   ... take pulse of projects and decide about moving forward

   <scribe> ACTION: Gregory - post list of aria roles, properties and
   states derived from or related to XForms concepts [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html#action01]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Gregory - post list of aria roles, properties and states
   derived from or related to XForms concepts [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-backplane-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________________
Received on Wednesday, 13 August 2008 00:51:40 GMT

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