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RE: [Bug 6692] New: Remove Mode from the specification

From: Chou, Wu (Wu) <wuchou@avaya.com>
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 21:27:02 -0400
Message-ID: <F81BDFA28AE48D4793E253362D1F7A740112AB9F@300813ANEX2.global.avaya.com>
To: "Gilbert Pilz" <gilbert.pilz@oracle.com>
Cc: <public-ws-resource-access@w3.org>, <member-ws-resource-access@w3.org>, "Asir Vedamuthu" <asirveda@microsoft.com>, "Bob Freund" <bob.freund@hitachisoftware.com>, "Li, Li (Li)" <lli5@avaya.com>
It is a real use case, and it cannot be put into the Delivery extension
because the subscriber expects a WS-E fault if not supported.

Removing Mode and using SOAP extensions with mU (mustUnderstand) header
is not a good option to us. Admittedly, we hope the same WS-E semantics
can be used in a non-SOAP and non-EPR environment (so does the TAG of
W3C), and removing Mode will create a gap. 

But a more practical issue with using SOAP header is: business
processes, e.g. WS-BPEL, etc., are typically specified and designed at
the abstract service level, and binding to SOAP or to other transports
is at the late stage by an almost automatic process. 

Using SOAP header extensions will take away this WS-E Mode semantics
from the abstract level, making it only available after SOAP binding.
Unfortunately, SOAP header extensions are not very friendly to many
design tools today. It is much easier to design, mock, visualize, test
and verify the services at the abstract level by those tools, and it is
much more difficult when SOAP header extensions, and bindings are
involved. For example, SOAP header extensions handling is still a
headache for many WS-BPEL engines and business process (BP) design tools
today.

Thanks,

- Wu Chou


________________________________

From: Gilbert Pilz [mailto:gilbert.pilz@oracle.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:42 PM
To: Chou, Wu (Wu)
Cc: public-ws-resource-access@w3.org; member-ws-resource-access@w3.org;
Asir Vedamuthu; Bob Freund; Li, Li (Li)
Subject: Re: [Bug 6692] New: Remove Mode from the specification


Wu,

I'm trying to clear something up, and I was wondering if you could help
me. Has the "concrete use case" you discuss below actually been
implemented by anybody, or is it a hypothetical, concrete use case?

- gp

Chou, Wu (Wu) wrote: 

	+1
	Asir: Many thanks for sharing your thoughts on this issue.  And
I attach one of our use cases of Mode in WS-E Delivery below. 
	 
	- Wu Chou
	 
	Wu Chou, IEEE Fellow, Ph.D. | Director |Avaya Labs Research |
AVAYA | 233 Mt. Airy Road| Rm. 2D48 | Basking Ridge, NJ 07920 |
Voice/Fax: 908-696-5198 / 908-696-5401 | wuchou@avaya.com
<blocked::mailto:wuchou@avaya.com> 
	 
	------Use Case of MODE in WS-E Delivery -----
	 
	Here is a  concrete use case where the  subscriber requests the
event source to push the  event  notifications through a proxy, obtained
either through an out-of-band channel (not specified in the Subscribe
request, e.g. the enterprise registers a special event notification
proxy with the service provider) or dynamically specified in the
Subscribe request. Certainly this behavior cannot be conveyed by the
wse:NotifyTo. This critical use case thus justifies the need for the
Mode attribute  in WS-E Delivery. 
	 To indicate the use of an out-of-band proxy, the Subscribe
request body looks like this:

	<wse:Subscribe>

	            <wse:Delivery Mode="urn:push_thru_proxy" >

	                        <wse:NotifyTo>...</wse:NotifyTo>

	            </wse:Delivery>

	</wse:Subscribe>

	 To indicate the use of a dynamic proxy, the Subscribe request
body looks like this:

	 <wse:Subscribe>

	            <wse:Delivery Mode="urn:push_thru_proxy" >

	                        <wse:Notifyto>...</wse:Notifyto>

	                        <ext:Proxy>...</ext:Proxy>

	            </wse:Delivery>

	</wse:Subscribe>

	

	"Mode=urn:push_thru_proxy" cannot be put into the Delivery
extension. This is because if the source cannot support
"push_thru_proxy", it must fault as defined by Mode in Delivery, and the
subscriber expects a standard wse:DeliveryModeRequestedUnavailable
fault. And there is no standard WS-E fault for items in the Delivery
extension.

	----------

	 
	From: Asir Vedamuthu <asirveda@microsoft.com
<mailto:asirveda@microsoft.com?Subject=RE%3A%20%5BBug%206692%5D%20New%3A
%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specification&In-Reply-To=%253CD46B7A44F
5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft
.com%253E&References=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40N
A-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E> > 
	Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:59:23 -0700
	To: "public-ws-resource-access@w3.org
<mailto:public-ws-resource-access@w3.org?Subject=RE%3A%20%5BBug%206692%5
D%20New%3A%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specification&In-Reply-To=%253
CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp
.microsoft.com%253E&References=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098
DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E> "
<public-ws-resource-access@w3.org
<mailto:public-ws-resource-access@w3.org?Subject=RE%3A%20%5BBug%206692%5
D%20New%3A%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specification&In-Reply-To=%253
CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp
.microsoft.com%253E&References=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098
DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E> > 
	Message-ID:
<D46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7@NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp..
microsoft.com>
<mailto:D46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7@NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond
.corp..microsoft.com>  
	
	Last week, on the WG conference call, I mentioned that we will
provide some clarity on the concept of delivery mode (in WS-Eventing)
and related use cases.
	
	Delivery mode [1] provides a subscriber with a mechanism to
specify the means by which an event is delivered. Delivery mode is
represented as a URI in a Subscribe message [2]. The semantics indicated
by a delivery mode are:
	
	
	1)  Rules for the delivery of events
	
	a)  Semantics and lifecycle of a Notification delivery
	
	b)  Message Exchange Pattern used (One-way, Request-Response,
etc.) and how the delivery mode binds to those Message Exchange Patterns
	
	c)  Format of a response (if any)
	
	d)  Configuration parameters or context data (if any) to support
the Message Exchange Pattern
	
	e)  Rules for the delivery or other disposition of faults
generated during a Notification delivery
	
	2)  Delivery mode specific protocol information (if any) to
guarantee interop
	
	3)  Supported delivery formats.
	
	Some portion of the above semantics are captured by an EPR, in a
machine-readable form, but certainly not all. So, there is value added
by a formal mechanism to indicate a delivery mode.
	
	The delivery mode is an extension point in WS-Eventing. The
WS-Eventing specification defines a single built-in delivery mode, Push
Mode. Other delivery modes may be important for external groups or other
W3C Working Groups and are delegated to those groups. This is similar to
SOAP Bindings. The W3C XML Protocol WG defined SOAP Protocol Binding
Framework as an extension point and a concrete binding, SOAP HTTP
Binding (is also identified using a URI [3]). Other groups defined SOAP
bindings such as SOAP-over-JMS and SOAP-over-UDP.
	
	The DMTF WS-Management WG defined three new delivery modes [4]
and these delivery modes have been widely adopted.
	
	Furthermore, based on the WS-RA WG charter [5], the WG
deliverables need to satisfy the following requirements as well:
	
	
	1)  Charter scope - "Mechanisms to allow a subscriber to specify
the means by which an event is delivered and the definition of a
push-based delivery mode".
	
	2)  Charter scope - "In order to avoid disrupting the
interoperability of existing implementations,
WS-MetadataExchange<http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/SUBM-WS-MetadataEx
change-20080813/>,
WS-Transfer<http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/SUBM-WS-Transfer-20060927/
>,
WS-Eventing<http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/SUBM-WS-Eventing-20060315/
> and
WS-Enumeration<http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/SUBM-WS-Enumeration-200
60315/> should remain compatible with protocols and formats that depend
on them, and offer a smooth migration path from the submission to the
standard." We are aware of two dependant protocols - DPWS [6] (uses Push
Mode) and WS-Management [4] (uses Push Mode and, as mentioned before,
defines three new delivery modes).
	
	[1] http://www.w3.org/Submission/WS-Eventing/#Delivery_Modes
	[2] http://www.w3.org/Submission/WS-Eventing/#Subscribe
	[3]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-soap12-part2-20030624/#http-bindname
	[4]
http://www.dmtf.org/standards/published_documents/DSP0226.pdf - Section
7
	[5] http://www.w3..org/2008/11/ws-ra-charter.html#scope
<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/ws-ra-charter.html#scope> 
	[6] http://specs.xmlsoap.org/ws/2006/02/devprof/
	
	We hope this helps.
	
	Regards,
	
	Asir S Vedamuthu
	Microsoft Corporation
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: public-ws-resource-access-notifications-request@w3.org
<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications-request@w3.org?Subject=R
E%3A%20%5BBug%206692%5D%20New%3A%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specific
ation&In-Reply-To=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-E
XMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E&References=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C
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253E>  [mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications-request@w3.org
<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications-request@w3.org?Subject=R
E%3A%20%5BBug%206692%5D%20New%3A%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specific
ation&In-Reply-To=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-E
XMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E&References=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C
4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%
253E> ] On Behalf Of bugzilla@wiggum.w3.org
<mailto:bugzilla@wiggum.w3.org?Subject=RE%3A%20%5BBug%206692%5D%20New%3A
%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specification&In-Reply-To=%253CD46B7A44F
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A-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E> 
	Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:37 AM
	To: public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org
<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org?Subject=RE%3A%20%
5BBug%206692%5D%20New%3A%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specification&In
-Reply-To=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C11
8.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E&References=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D6
9E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E> 
	Subject: [Bug 6692] New: Remove Mode from the specification
	
	http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6692
	
	           Summary: Remove Mode from the specification
	
	           Product: WS-Resource Access
	
	           Version: CR
	
	          Platform: PC
	
	        OS/Version: All
	
	            Status: NEW
	
	          Severity: major
	
	          Priority: P2
	
	         Component: Eventing
	
	        AssignedTo:
public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org
<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org?Subject=RE%3A%20%
5BBug%206692%5D%20New%3A%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specification&In
-Reply-To=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C11
8.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E&References=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D6
9E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E>
<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org
<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org?Subject=RE%3A%20%
5BBug%206692%5D%20New%3A%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specification&In
-Reply-To=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C11
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9E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E> >
	
	        ReportedBy: david.Snelling@UK.Fujitsu.com
<mailto:david.Snelling@UK.Fujitsu.com?Subject=RE%3A%20%5BBug%206692%5D%2
0New%3A%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specification&In-Reply-To=%253CD4
6B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.mi
crosoft.com%253E&References=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF
4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E>
<mailto:david.Snelling@UK.Fujitsu.com
<mailto:david.Snelling@UK.Fujitsu.com?Subject=RE%3A%20%5BBug%206692%5D%2
0New%3A%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specification&In-Reply-To=%253CD4
6B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.mi
crosoft.com%253E&References=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF
4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E> >
	
	         QAContact:
public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org
<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org?Subject=RE%3A%20%
5BBug%206692%5D%20New%3A%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specification&In
-Reply-To=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C11
8.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E&References=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D6
9E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E>
<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org
<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org?Subject=RE%3A%20%
5BBug%206692%5D%20New%3A%20Remove%20Mode%20from%20the%20specification&In
-Reply-To=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D69E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C11
8.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E&References=%253CD46B7A44F5BD0C4A96D7D6
9E31C51D6B5098DCF4A7%40NA-EXMSG-C118.redmond.corp.microsoft.com%253E> >
	
	
	The concept of Mode is redundant in the current version of the
specification.
	
	All events can be thought of as being delivered. There is no
actual definition
	
	of "Push Mode" and no other recommended modes. We even have a
MakeConnection
	
	strategy to allow clients behind NATs to fetch events. Likewise,
strategies for
	
	complex queuing and distribution are supportable without adding
additional
	
	modes and are outside the scope of this specification.
	
	
	
	Proposal: Remove /s:Envelope/s:Body/*/wse:Delivery/@Mode from
the specification
	
	and all references to Push Mode. A simple explanation of the
delivery idea and
	
	a pointer to some of the techniques available will be needed.
	
	--
	
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	Wu Chou, IEEE Fellow, Ph.D. | Director |Dialogue System Research
| AVAYA | 233 Mt. Airy Road| Rm. 2D48 | Basking Ridge, NJ 07920 |
Voice/Fax: 908-696-5198 / 908-696-5401 | wuchou@avaya.com
<blocked::mailto:wuchou@avaya.com>  
	 
Received on Tuesday, 5 May 2009 01:27:53 GMT

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