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RE: Absence of wsam:NonAnon implies prohibition of non-anon response (was RE: [ws-rx] I just posted a PR comment on MakeConnection Policy assertion)

From: Gilbert Pilz <Gilbert.Pilz@bea.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 10:43:33 -0800
Message-ID: <E16EB59B8AEDF445B644617E3C1B3C9C034B4876@repbex01.amer.bea.com>
To: "Doug Davis" <dug@us.ibm.com>
Cc: <public-ws-addressing@w3.org>, "ws policy" <public-ws-policy@w3.org>, <public-ws-policy-request@w3.org>, <tom@coastin.com>, "wsrx" <ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org>
I agree that, at a shallow level, the policy is 'valid'. However, if I
wanted to indicate to clients that they must use ReplyTo addresses that are
either wsa:anon or wsmc:anon, this is an incorrect policy. Agreed?
 
- gp


  _____  

From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 10:20 AM
To: Gilbert Pilz
Cc: public-ws-addressing@w3.org; ws policy; public-ws-policy-request@w3.org;
tom@coastin.com; wsrx
Subject: Re: Absence of wsam:NonAnon implies prohibition of non-anon
response (was RE: [ws-rx] I just posted a PR comment on MakeConnection
Policy assertion)



I believe this is valid from a policy perspective. 
wsa:ReplyTo must be wsa:Anon   but it allows for other EPRs (just not
wsa:ReplyTo/FaultTo) to use MCanonURI. 

thanks
-Doug
______________________________________________________
STSM  |  Web Services Architect  |  IBM Software Group
(919) 254-6905  |  IBM T/L 444-6905  |  dug@us.ibm.com 



"Gilbert Pilz" <Gilbert.Pilz@bea.com> 
Sent by: public-ws-policy-request@w3.org 


03/01/2007 01:14 PM 


To
<tom@coastin.com> 

cc
"wsrx" <ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org>, <public-ws-addressing@w3.org>, "ws
policy" <public-ws-policy@w3.org> 

Subject
Absence of wsam:NonAnon implies prohibition of non-anon response (was RE:
[ws-rx] I just posted a PR comment on MakeConnection Policy assertion)

	




Tom,

It seems the following policy would be invalid under your model because
there is no wsam:NonAnonymousResponses assertion yet a ReplyTo that
contained an instance of the wsmc:anon URI would be a non-anonymous
response. Do you agree?

<wsp:Policy wsu:Id="RMResponsePolicy">
 <wsp:All>
   <wsam:Addressing>
     <wsp:Policy>
       <wsp:ExactlyOne> 
         <wsp:All>
           <wsam:AnonymousResponses/> 
         </wsp:All> 
       <wsp:ExactlyOne> 
     </wsp:Policy> 
   </wsam:Addressing>
   <wsmc:MCRequired/>
 </wsp:All>
</wsp:Policy>

- gp

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Rutt [mailto:tom@coastin.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 4:18 PM
> To: Gilbert Pilz
> Cc: tom@coastin.com; wsrx; public-ws-addressing@w3.org; ws policy
> Subject: Re: [ws-rx] I just posted a PR comment on 
> MakeConnection Policy assertion
> 
> I put an example policy which has three alternatives
> 
> These cover the CR33 is in my opinion.
> 
> The following example shows an equivalent policy expression, 
> assuming proposed alternative A (wsa:NonAnonymous defined as 
> any URI value other than
> wsa:Anonymous) is selected.  This requires use of 
> MakeConnection to be treated as a special case of 
> wsam:nonAnonymous reply.
> 
> 
> 
> <wsp:Policy>  <-- Policy expression for proposed alternative 
> a) --> ..<wsp:ExactlyOne>
> 
> ....<wsp:All>
> ......<wsam:Addressing>
> ........<wsp:Policy>
> ..........<wsp:ExactlyOne>
> ..........<!-- anon or non-anon responses required--> 
> ............<wsp:All> ..............<wsam:AnonymousResponses/>
> ............</wsp:All>
> ............<wsp:All>
> ...............<wsam:NonanonymousResponses/>
> ............</wsp:All>
> ..........</wsp:ExactlyOne>
> ........</wsp:Policy>
> ......</wsam:Addressing>
> ......<!--  wsmc:MakeConnection is not asserted as part of > this all,
thus no statement on its use in this alternative > --.> ....</wsp:All>> > >
....<! Addressing required, only use makeConnection for reply -->
> ....<wsp:All>
> ......<wsam:Addressing>
> ........<wsp:Policy>
> ..........<wsp:ExactlyOne>
> ..........<!-- non-anon responses required-->
> ............<wsp:All>
> ...............<wsam:NonanonymousResponses/>
> ............<wsp:All>
> ..........</wsp:ExactlyOne>
> ........</wsp:Policy>
> ......</wsam:Addressing>
> ......<wsmc:MakeConnection/>
> ....</wsp:All>
> ..</wsp:ExactlyOne>
> </wsp:Policy>
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Rutt wrote:
> > Comments below
> >
> > Tom Rutt
> >
> > Gilbert Pilz wrote:
> >> This discussion really belongs in WS-Addr so I've 
> cross-posted . . .
> >>
> >> I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that the non-presence of the
> >> wsam:NonAnonymousResponses implies that non-anonymous 
> reply addresses 
> >> are
> >> not supported. Doesn't this just re-open the festering 
> wound of CR33?
> >>
> >> Both the wsam:AnonymousResponses and wsmc:MCResponses assertions 
> >> refer to
> >> the use of fairly specific URIs, but wsam:NonAnonymousResponses 
> >> refers to
> >> the use of *any* URI other than
> >> "http://www.w3.org/2005/08/addressing/anonymous". To say that the 
> >> absence of
> >> wsam:NonAnonymousResponses implies its negation is to say 
> that *only*
> >> wsa:Anon is supported (thus ruling out things like the 
> wsmc:Anon URI).
> >> Didn't we spend months figuring out that this wouldn't work?
> >>   
> > Since these two policy assetions are nested in Addressing 
> asssertion, 
> > any policy maker
> > who includes the addressing assertion is aware of the 
> semantics of its 
> > two nested policy assertion types.
> >
> > That policy maker can construct a policy expression which contains 
> > enough alternatives to
> > cover all the response mechanisms it wants to use with that 
> endpoint.
> > Anyway, lets assume we take out the text about "non presence means 
> > prohibition".  if someone puts int "AnonymousResponses" nested 
> > assertion in an addressing assertion and it is a 
> requirement, that is 
> > saying that other type of responses cannot be used (since 
> anonymous is 
> > required for instances of responses).  Thus to allow use of non 
> > anonymous responses and anonymous responses would require two 
> > alternative in the policy expression.
> >
> > If we have to deal with alternatives anyway to espress the 
> necessary 
> > semantics of replies in a policy expression, I do not see 
> the problem 
> > of having "non Presence" of the NonAnonymousResponses
> > nested assertion in any alternative involving addressing assetion 
> > implying non-anonymous is prohibited.  Just add another alternative 
> > which includes the nested assertion you want.
> >
> >
> > Tom Rutt
> >> - gp
> >>
> >>  
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Tom Rutt [mailto:tom@coastin.com] Sent: Tuesday, 
> February 27, 
> >>> 2007 12:56 PM
> >>> To: tom@coastin.com
> >>> Cc: Doug Davis; wsrx
> >>> Subject: Re: [ws-rx] I just posted a PR comment on MakeConnection 
> >>> Policy assertion
> >>>
> >>> Tom Rutt wrote:
> >>>    
> >>>> Tom Rutt wrote:
> >>>>      
> >>>>> Doug Davis wrote:
> >>>>>         
> >>>> I now understand that your changes are required since make       
> >>> connection    
> >>>> can also be used for delivering requests.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thus I agree with our changes to my proposal.
> >>>>
> >>>> However we still need to discuss the need for a statement on Non 
> >>>> Presence implying prohibition.
> >>>>       
> >>> After talking to some ws-policy experts, it seems that because 
> >>> MakeConnection is a first level policy assertion type, lack of 
> >>> presence of this assertion anywhere in a policy alternative says 
> >>> nothing about its use.
> >>>
> >>> The difference with ws addressing nested paramters is 
> that they are 
> >>> defined within the context of the first level assertion 
> "addressing" 
> >>> .  This for these nested parameters, non presence within an 
> >>> asseretion of "addressing" policy  implies prohibition of that 
> >>> alternative.
> >>>
> >>> The tricky part is if a policy has two alternatives, and one of 
> >>> those alternative includes the MakeConnection assertion, 
> that policy 
> >>> statement has introduced MakeConnection into the policy 
> vocabulary.  
> >>> In such a case, does absence in one of the assertions imply not 
> >>> using make connection?
> >>>
> >>> eg
> >>>
> >>> <wsp:Policy>
> >>> <wsp:ExactlyOne>
> >>> <wsp:All>
> >>> <wsmc:MakeConnection/>
> >>> </wsp:All>
> >>> <wsp:All>
> >>> <-- does this alternative prohibit use of MakeConnection?? -->
> >>> </wsp:All>
> >>> </wsp:ExactlyOne>
> >>> </wsp:Policy>
> >>>
> >>>    
> >>>> This discsussion needs to distinguish an endpoint which 
> has       
> >>> no policy    
> >>>> statement attached, from one which has policy attached, 
> but       
> >>> does not    
> >>>> include the makeConnection assertion in any alternative.
> >>>>      
> >>>>>> Tom,
> >>>>>> you proposed:
> >>>>>> Change lines 327 - 329 from:
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> The MakeConnection policy assertion indicates that the 
>           
> >>> MakeConnection
> >>>    
> >>>>>> protocol (operation and the use of the MakeConnection 
> URI           
> >>> template in
> >>>    
> >>>>>> EndpointReferences) is supported. This assertion has           
> >>> Endpoint Policy
> >>>    
> >>>>>> Subject [WS-PolicyAttachment].
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> To
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> The MakeConnection policy assertion indicates that the 
>           
> >>> MakeConnection
> >>>    
> >>>>>> protocol (operation and the use of the MakeConnection 
> URI           
> >>> template in
> >>>    
> >>>>>> EndpointReferences) is required for instances of replies. This
> >>>>>> assertion has Endpoint Policy Subject [WS-PolicyAttachment].
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> Since MC doesn't talk about any EPR in particular I 
> think           
> >>> it would    
> >>>>>> make more sense to reword as:
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> The MakeConnection policy assertion indicates that the 
>           
> >>> MakeConnection
> >>>    
> >>>>>> protocol (operation and the use of the MakeConnection 
> URI           
> >>> template in
> >>>    
> >>>>>> EndpointReferences) is required for messages from this 
>           
> >>> endpoint. This
> >>>    
> >>>>>> assertion has Endpoint Policy Subject [WS-PolicyAttachment].
> >>>>>>           
> >>>>> your wording removed "required for instances of 
> replies". Is this 
> >>>>> because you wish it to be used for requests as well.?
> >>>>>        
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> And then you suggested:
> >>>>>> Change line 334 from:
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> A policy assertion that specifies that the 
> MakeConnection           
> >>> protocol is
> >>>    
> >>>>>> supported.
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> To
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> A policy assertion that specifies that the 
> MakeConnection           
> >>> protocol is
> >>>    
> >>>>>> required for instances of replies from an endpoint.
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> And I would suggest this instead:
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> A policy assertion that specifies that the 
> MakeConnection           
> >>> protocol is
> >>>    
> >>>>>> required for instances of messages from this endpoint.
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>           
> >>>>> same question, I assumed makeConnection is for 
> responses, are you
> >>>>> are pointing out it can also be used for requests?
> >>>>> Tom
> >>>>>        
> >>>>>> As to Paul's question of severity of this change, it           
> >>> would seem that
> >>>    
> >>>>>> your text is still consistent with the intent of the           
> >>> original text,
> >>>    
> >>>>>> as such it seems like a non-substantive change. Would 
> you agree?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> thanks
> >>>>>> -Doug
> >>>>>> ______________________________________________________
> >>>>>> STSM | Web Services Architect | IBM Software Group
> >>>>>> (919) 254-6905 | IBM T/L 444-6905 | dug@us.ibm.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>           
> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> Tom Rutt    email: tom@coastin.com; trutt@us.fujitsu.com
> >>>>> Tel: +1 732 801 5744          Fax: +1 732 774 5133
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>         
> >>>>       
> >>> -- 
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------
> >>> Tom Rutt    email: tom@coastin.com; trutt@us.fujitsu.com
> >>> Tel: +1 732 801 5744          Fax: +1 732 774 5133
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     
> >
> 
> -- 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Tom Rutt                 email: tom@coastin.com; trutt@us.fujitsu.com
> Tel: +1 732 801 5744          Fax: +1 732 774 5133
> 
> 
> 






Received on Thursday, 1 March 2007 18:45:19 GMT

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