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Re: Formal semantics paper - from Marco Carbone et al

From: L.G. Meredith <lgreg.meredith@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 02:33:32 -0700
Message-ID: <5de3f5ca0608090233x57b85773kd0aa4240ab164fe5@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Gary Brown" <gary@pi4tech.com>
Cc: "Kohei Honda" <kohei@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>, "Marco Carbone" <carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>, "Steve Ross-Talbot" <steve@pi4tech.com>, "WS-Choreography List" <public-ws-chor@w3.org>
Gary,

Many thanks. i think we are converging to a good understanding of the
various options and positions. My only clarification at this point would be
to say that i was talking about model extraction from the service
implementation, rather than the endpoint description. Please see the
attached pdf for a picture.

Best wishes,

--greg

On 8/9/06, Gary Brown <gary@pi4tech.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Greg
>
> Responses to your inline comments:
>
>
> >     >
> >     > The Role of Choreography in Model Extraction
> >     >
> >     > In the model extraction scenario an application developer writes
> in
> >     > something like a C#++ or C## (= D?) and from this application we
> >     > extract a model and check it against the endpoint descriptions.
> Now,
> >     > in this scenario, what is the value of a public description of the
> >     > specific model? As long as there is some algorithm derived from
> >     >
> >     >     * a generic description of the modeling language and
> >     >     * the generic descriptions of the endpoint description
> language
> >     >     * and optionally a public description of the model extraction
> >     >       algorithm
> >     >
> >     > then there can be public confidence in a conformance check of an
> >     > application against an endpoint description without ever
> >     exposing the
> >     > model extracted from the application. The application logic
> remains
> >     > behind the firewall, the endpoint description is posted to a
> service
> >     > discovery repository, but the model is never published anywhere.
> The
> >     > upshot of this analysis is that in this scenario i believe there
> >     is a
> >     > question about the value of Choreography except as a public
> >     > specification of the generic modeling language. No one ever need
> >     > publish a specific choreography (= extracted model).
> >     This scenario is focusing on the specific service endpoint, and
> >     therefore the choreography is not as relevant. However, if we are
> >     dealing with a service registry within an organization, then I am
> sure
> >     that the organization (as part of its governance procedures) would
> >     want
> >     to ensure that any updates to that service endpoint did not affect
> >     current clients of the service. The best way to do this is to have a
> >     choreography description of your business processes and then
> >     ensure that
> >     the updated service endpoint description still conforms to the
> >     endpoint
> >     requirements associated with those choreographies. I think this
> >     type of
> >     validation will be essential to the adoption of SOA within
> >     organizations
> >     that may have a large number of services.
> >
> >
> > i do not find this argument particularly compelling under the
> > operating assumptions. If we continue to assume that
> >
> >     * there is an automatic way to extract a model from a given
> >       service implementation;
> >     * there is an automatic way to calculate conformance of the model
> >       to an endpoint description
> >
> > then if we update either an endpoint description in a discovery
> > repository, or a given service advertising to provide service
> > conforming to an endpoint description, then surely the model ( a.k.a
> > choreography) may safely remain hidden behind the firewall and
> > generated at the time of the conformance check, from the services
> > claiming or demanding conformance. The conformance check may be done
> > eagerly, at the time of the update to the discovery repository, or
> > lazily, at the time of service provisioning, or both.
> >
> > More to the point, a client to the service provider is only ever
> > interested in
> >
> >     * the endpoint description, and
> >     * whether the service conforms to that description
> >
> > and does not need (or want) to know the full details of the service
> > logic, or even as much detail as is offered in the model.
> >
> > For example, i am not interested to know whether Amazon uses
> > transactions or some kind of reflection-based computational model to
> > guarantee that my card gets charged only when the packaged gets
> > scanned before it goes on the plane. i just want to know that if my
> > card has been charged then the package is in the hands of the shipper.
> > This sort of assurance can be calculated from an endpoint description
> > like we find in usages.
> >
>
> I agree, generally the choreography would remain behind the firewall,
> because it usually will be in the control of the organization that owns
> the business process. However in some situations the choreography is
> describing a public business protocol between many organizations (no
> single owning organization) in which case the choreography would be
> public.
>
> However, to address your specific point, a choreography could be
> reconstituted from the service endpoint descriptions based on model
> extraction (of the observable behavior). This would be adequate for
> conformance checking - however it would not address the needs of an
> organization that wishes to use the choreography as a design that can
> evolve over time, where you then need to forward generate endpoint
> descriptions to understand the impact on the current deployed services
> (endpoint descriptions).
>
> Having a choreography may also be useful where the business process has
> to conform to specific regulations. If you only ever reconstitute a
> choreography from the endpoint descriptions, that may evolve over time,
> all you will be able to determine is that those services still operate
> correctly together. It may also be necessary to ensure that the
> choreography conforms to an abstract choreography mandated by a regulator.
>
> I take your point that conformance checking can be achieved based on an
> extracted model of the endpoint behaviors. However I believe there are
> other use cases that benefit from having a concrete description.
>
> >     >
> >     > The Role of Choreography in Executable Specifications
> >     >
> >     > A more radical approach to keeping model and application in sync
> >     is to
> >     > have them be one and the same thing. That is, we devise a language
> >     > that is at once
> >     >
> >     >     * semantically derived from our modeling language
> >     >     * semantically rich enough to write real applications
> >     >     * with an execution model performant enough to run them in the
> >     >       commercial setting (e.g. enterprise, desktop, gaming, etc.)
> >     >
> >     > With apologies to the community that originally coined the term, i
> >     > commandeer the phrase executable specifications for applications
> >     > written in such a language and call the language itself an
> >     executable
> >     > specification language. Terminology aside, with this approach
> >     there is
> >     > no model extraction phase as such (unless you see it as part of
> the
> >     > conformance analysis -- which is throwing away tons of application
> >     > detail). The model is the application.
> >     >
> >     > In some sense we are back in the world developers know and love
> >     -- we
> >     > don't need no stinking spec -- the code is the spec. Further,
> there
> >     > are tremendous benefits from this approach, many of which have
> >     to do
> >     > with using the static analysis to directly aid development as
> >     the code
> >     > is being written, ala the way intellisense works, etc.
> >     >
> >     > This line of thinking is what has led many to try to develop a
> >     > \pi-like language rich enough to do application development.
> >     But, the
> >     > question is, what is the role of Choreography in this scenario? i
> >     > submit to you that it must ultimately give rise to such a \pi-like
> >     > language either by becoming one or by helping to open the way
> >     for such
> >     > a language to develop and gain adoption in the market place.
> >     >
> >     > Note, however, that even in this scenario, application code (=
> >     model)
> >     > will certainly not be published. A public description of the
> >     > executable specification language certainly needs to be publish,
> >     this
> >     > would be something like the ECMA spec for C#/.net or R^5 Scheme
> >     spec.
> >     > But for specific service offerings only the endpoint
> >     descriptions will
> >     > be published.
> >     Interesting idea. Not sure it is suitable for the choreography to
> >     provide such an executable specification - especially as it
> >     represents
> >     the global view. However, if such an executable specification was
> >     available, then it would be easier to do conformance checking
> without
> >     worrying about synchronization issues between the implementation
> >     and the
> >     endpoint's behavioral description.
> >
> >     However, getting a new language adopted and used by developers is
> >     not an
> >     easy task. Therefore even if such a language was devised, we would
> >     still
> >     be left with many services written in .NET and Java.
> >
> >     Do we not already have such an executable specification - i.e. BPEL?
> I
> >     am sure it is nothing like the language you would prefer, but it
> would
> >     be very easy to extract a model from it. Although for a similar
> >     reason
> >     as stated above, I don't see BPEL becoming the predominant service
> >     execution language (plus it is currently limited to Web Services).
> >
> >
> > i see that my choice of terminology was unfortunate. In the case i was
> > outlining i was using the notion of executable specification more
> > along the lines of Haskell or OCaml. These are fully functional,
> > general purpose programming languages. People write real-world,
> > commercial applications in these languages. For example, Jane St.
> > Capital writes trading applications in OCaml. But, these languages
> > still enjoy a high degree of abstraction and discipline and carefully
> > designed applications in these languages can certainly claim to be
> > specifications -- especially Haskell.
> >
> > BPEL, on the other hand, does not enjoy sufficient detail to be a
> > general purpose programming language. No one in their right mind, i
> > would submit, would find this to be a suitable language for writing
> > commercially deployable applications. There's just not enough of the
> > usual language and execution infrastructure for that. Nor does BPEL
> > enjoy enough abstraction and discipline to qualify as a specification
> > language. There are too many semantic ambiguities and too many
> > competing programming models -- when last i looked at the spec -- to
> > take BPEL seriously as a specification language.
> >
> > i do see quite a wide niche for something like Haskell or OCaml, but
> > with much richer and more appropriate concurrency and distribution
> > models than these languages natively support. To wit, i would argue
> > that on the client side the popularity of AJAX is making the case for
> > a language-based approach to concurrency in a much more compelling way
> > than any academic argument. People find AJAX programming very
> > difficult, but are unwilling to live with the consequences of
> > sequentializing everything ala old-style web-based interfaces. And, on
> > the server side, i believe it easy to coopt all of the arguments your
> > group has made to support this position -- under the operating
> > assumption that it is essential to prevent drift between model and
> > service.
> >
>
> If you could get the right group of people (+organizations) together
> that were interested in doing such a new language, then I think there
> are a number of people on this group that would love to participate.
> However, from a commercial perspective, looking at the current state of
> the art (and adoption) we need to find a solution that will support Java
> and .NET services. The reason for mentioning BPEL was because it is
> probably the best candidate for model extraction out of the popular
> endpoint implementation technologies - however I don't know what the
> actual level of adoption really is in terms of deployed production BPEL
> services.
>
>
>
>
>
> >     s
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > On 8/3/06, *Gary Brown* < gary@pi4tech.com
> >     <mailto:gary@pi4tech.com> <mailto:gary@pi4tech.com
> >     <mailto:gary@pi4tech.com>>>
> >     > wrote:
> >     >
> >     >     Hi Greg
> >     >
> >     >     Just to respond to your last point, I think there is
> >     definitely a
> >     >     place
> >     >     for both 'full blown choreographies' representing a global
> >     view of
> >     >     a set
> >     >     of interacting services, as well as a description of the
> >     specific
> >     >     behavior associated with a service. They have different
> >     roles to play.
> >     >
> >     >     The global model provides a design approach to enable the
> >     >     responsibilities of each service to be understood with
> >     respect to a
> >     >     particular business process. This global model can then be
> >     used to
> >     >     derive the behavior of a new service, or ensure that
> >     existing legacy
> >     >     services conform to the required behavior (using the service's
> >     >     observable behavior description).
> >     >
> >     >     Similarly, as you have described, if a service has its own
> >     endpoint
> >     >     behavior description, then it would be possible to do a
> >     behavioral
> >     >     equivalence lookup within a service registry. However, the
> >     required
> >     >     service behavior could be derived from the choreography.
> >     >
> >     >     At the moment Marco and Kohei's type system addresses both
> >     of these
> >     >     aspects, it is only WS-CDL that is lacking an endpoint
> >     >     representation -
> >     >     which as you have pointed out would ideally be a simple
> >     extension to
> >     >     WSDL. But that was not within the charter of the working
> group.
> >     >
> >     >     However, this is one area where potentially abstract BPEL may
> >     >     provide a
> >     >     solution, but that does not preclude other more compact
> >     notations
> >     >     being
> >     >     associated with the WSDL in the future.
> >     >
> >     >     Regards
> >     >     Gary
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     L.G. Meredith wrote:
> >     >     > Kohei,
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Many thanks for the edifying remarks. i hope you will
> >     allow me to
> >     >     > probe on a related front.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Suppose we took a different approach to the architecture of
> >     >     WS-CDL in
> >     >     > which what is published is something like (collections of)
> >     >     Kobayashi's
> >     >     > usages, (an appropriately XML-ified version of) which could
> be
> >     >     seen as
> >     >     > a simple and direct extension of WSDL, leaving more detailed
> >     >     > descriptions of service logic (in which resides potentially
> >     >     > proprietary business value) behind the firewall, so to
> speak.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > i emphasize publish in this context because i want to call
> >     >     attention
> >     >     > to what's of general public interest in a service
> >     description. i
> >     >     argue
> >     >     > that the primary function of a public service description is
> >     >     search. i
> >     >     > submit that in a world where SOA is the norm there will be
> >     >     billions of
> >     >     > services, and a service consumer will need to find
> >     services that
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     * do what they need them to do (a semantic question)
> >     >     >     * do it in a way that is compatible with their own
> >     needs and
> >     >     >       practices
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Further, i argue that the former is far more important
> >     than the
> >     >     > latter. Consider the case where there is only one
> >     provider. The
> >     >     > consumer will adapt to any incompatibility. (Note that
> >     just because
> >     >     > there is only one such provider does not alleviate the
> search
> >     >     burden.
> >     >     > The consumer may not know of the provider, even when there
> is
> >     >     only one.)
> >     >     >
> >     >     > i want to argue that a great deal of semantic information
> >     can be
> >     >     > gleaned from information about behavior. i can provide some
> >     >     > interesting and illustrative examples, if you want them. One
> >     >     question,
> >     >     > however, is how much information needs to public to help the
> >     >     consumer
> >     >     > address their needs, and what needs to remain behind the
> >     firewall to
> >     >     > protect hard won business value?
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Now, to bring this line of reasoning back to my question
> >     above. Does
> >     >     > the market need a standard to capture full-blown
> >     choreographies?
> >     >     Or,
> >     >     > is there another niche that is likely to see better
> >     adoption? For
> >     >     > example, consider a small extension to WSDL, like
> Kobayashi's
> >     >     usages,
> >     >     > which can -- in Marco's words more powerfully and more
> >     generally --
> >     >     > ensure both compatibility issues (like eliminating
> >     deadlock) and
> >     >     > increase the information available by which to conduct
> >     >     semantic-based
> >     >     > search one.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Best wishes,
> >     >     >
> >     >     > --greg
> >     >     >
> >     >     > On 8/2/06, *Kohei Honda* <kohei@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:kohei@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
> >     >     <mailto:kohei@dcs.qmul.ac.uk <mailto:kohei@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>>
> >     >     > <mailto: kohei@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:kohei@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> <mailto:kohei@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:kohei@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>>>> wrote:
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Hi Greg,
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     It is great to get reactions so quickly.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     L.G. Meredith wrote:
> >     >     >     > Marco, Kohei,
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > Thanks for clarifying. i was refering to the EPP
> >     theorem
> >     >     on page 85,
> >     >     >     > which i took as the central result of the work.
> >     Sorry, if
> >     >     i was
> >     >     >     a bit
> >     >     >     > eliptical. My thought was that the end point
> >     calculus is
> >     >     actually a
> >     >     >     > type system and end point projection was like the
> >     >     calculation of a
> >     >     >     > kind of minimal type. Then, you can see the EPP
> >     theorem in the
> >     >     >     light
> >     >     >     > of subject reduction.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     I may rather say that the global calculus and the end
> >     point
> >     >     >     calculus are
> >     >     >     two different description
> >     >     >     languages, each with its own typing system, with
> >     respective
> >     >     notions of
> >     >     >     minimum typing.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     The type structures are common, but the way
> >     descriptions are
> >     >     typed are
> >     >     >     quite different.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     The idea is to project each "well-formd" global
> >     description to a
> >     >     >     collection of endpoint processes,
> >     >     >     which are the code for the participants involved.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     What the EPP theorem asks is:
> >     >     >
> >     >     >         Do these projected participants interact following a
> >     >     scenario
> >     >     >     (choreography) which the
> >     >     >         original global description has laid out?
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     It turns out that, if a global description satisfies
> >     certain
> >     >     >     well-structuredness, or "healthiness conditions",
> >     >     >     then
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     (1) there is a very simple endpoint projection, and
> >     >     >     (2) the correspondence in behaviour is as exact as can
> >     be.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     There are three well-structuredness conditions we have
> >     >     identified.  We
> >     >     >     believe they offer a natural
> >     >     >     way to do a well-structured global description.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     I will post a brief discussion on the engineering
> >     meaning of
> >     >     this
> >     >     >     result, but for the time being let us
> >     >     >     say the EPP theorem offers a way to relate the global
> >     >     description
> >     >     >     languages and the process calculi.
> >     >     >     The latter gives rigorous theories of behaviours, their
> >     >     properties
> >     >     >     and
> >     >     >     composition, while the former
> >     >     >     offers a useful engineering medium.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > i know that you have a separate notion of typing
> >     laid out
> >     >     in the
> >     >     >     > paper, but i tend to think -- much in the way Kohei
> >     laid
> >     >     out -- of
> >     >     >     > towers of typing of increasing strength. Abramsky
> >     gives a good
> >     >     >     example
> >     >     >     > of such in his Marktoberdorff lecture with Simon Gay
> >     and Raja
> >     >     >     > Nagaranjan on types for concurrency.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     On this point I firmly agree: types and various analyses
> >     >     including
> >     >     >     process/program logics are great toos
> >     >     >     especially when we know how to integrate them
> >     consistently.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > That said, i was trying to draw an analogy between
> >     the EPP and
> >     >     >     > Kobayashi's usages. More specifically, in my mind
> >     there is
> >     >     >     connection
> >     >     >     > between the fact that EPP is a function and
> >     Kobayashi has
> >     >     a type
> >     >     >     > inference algorithm -- apart from the practical
> >     >     implication that the
> >     >     >     > programmer doesn't have to write the type.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     So the EPP theorem is not so much about type
> >     discipline or
> >     >     program
> >     >     >     analysis but rather about a basic way
> >     >     >     to relate two distinct ways of describing interactions.
> It
> >     >     is like the
> >     >     >     result on encoding of some calculi into
> >     >     >     the pi-calculus, saying the encoding fully respects the
> >     >     original
> >     >     >     dynamics, under certain conditions.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     These "under certain conditions" are the
> >     well-structuredness
> >     >     >     (healthiness) conditions.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     I will discuss on the general picture further in my
> coming
> >     >     post.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Best wishes,
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     kohei
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > Best wishes,
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > --greg
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > On 8/2/06, *Marco Carbone* < carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
> >     >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>>
> >     >     >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
> >     >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>>>
> >     >     >     > <mailto: carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
> >     >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>>
> >     >     >     <mailto: carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
> >     >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>>>>> wrote:
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >>     This looks like a lot of work. i may be
> >     misreading,
> >     >     because i
> >     >     >     >>     have only skimmed, but it looks as though the
> main
> >     >     theorem
> >     >     >     is a
> >     >     >     >>     subject reduction-like theorem in which the
> >     subject
> >     >     >     reduction is
> >     >     >     >>     simulation-style (ala Kobayashi's type systems)
> as
> >     >     opposed to a
> >     >     >     >>     static subject reduction (ala Honda, et al's type
> >     >     systems).
> >     >     >     Have
> >     >     >     >>     you seen, therefore, Kobayashi's 2006 types for
> >     >     concurrency
> >     >     >     paper (
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     Just to clarify, the paper has three main
> theorems:
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     1) Subject Reduction for the global calculus
> >     type system
> >     >     >     (session
> >     >     >     >     types) i.e. when the system evolves it is still
> well
> >     >     typed (
> >     >     >     e.g.
> >     >     >     >     I evolves to I' and I is well typed then also I'
> is
> >     >     well typed.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     2) Subject Reduction for the end-point calculus
> >     >     (similar to
> >     >     >     point 1)
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     3) EPP Theorem, i.e.
> >     >     >     >     a) Type Preservation i.e. a well typed global
> >     >     description is
> >     >     >     >     projected to a well typed global interaction.
> >     >     >     >     b) Completeness i.e. if a global interaction I
> >     evolves
> >     >     to I'
> >     >     >     then
> >     >     >     >     its projection evolves to the "projection" of I'
> >     >     (EPP(I') )
> >     >     >     >     c) Soundness i.e. if a projection EPP ( I )
> >     evolves to
> >     >     N then I
> >     >     >     >     can evolve to I' and the projection of I' is
> >     "similar"
> >     >     to N
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     1) and 2) guarantee that working with typed
> >     programs
> >     >     is safe
> >     >     >     (you
> >     >     >     >     never evolve to untyped i.e. unwanted things).
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     3) shows that given a global description ( e.g.
> >     a WS-CDL
> >     >     >     >     choreography), its end-point projection is good
> and
> >     >     respects
> >     >     >     what
> >     >     >     >     the programmer wanted to specify in the
> >     choreography.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     Hope this clarifies the key points of the paper.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     Best,
> >     >     >     >     Marco
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     P.S.
> >     >     >     >     I didn't read the paper you linked but I believe
> >     it is
> >     >     related
> >     >     >     >     with another of his works i.e. having CCS
> >     processes as
> >     >     types.
> >     >     >     >     Session types are related to this but
> >     Kobayashi's are
> >     >     much more
> >     >     >     >     powerful and lose.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     http://www.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp/~koba/papers/concur2006-full.pdf
> >     <http://www.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp/%7Ekoba/papers/concur2006-full.pdf>
> >     >
> >     <http://www.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp/%7Ekoba/papers/concur2006-full.pdf>
> >     >     >     <
> >     >
> >     http://www.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp/%7Ekoba/papers/concur2006-full.pdf>
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     <http://www.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp/%7Ekoba/papers/concur2006-full.pdf
> >     <http://www.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp/%7Ekoba/papers/concur2006-full.pdf>
> >     >
> >     <http://www.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp/%7Ekoba/papers/concur2006-full.pdf
> >>)?
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>     Best wishes,
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>     --greg
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>     On 8/1/06, *Steve Ross-Talbot* <
> >     steve@pi4tech.com <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com>
> >     >     <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com>>
> >     >     >     <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com>
> >     <mailto: steve@pi4tech.com <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com>>>
> >     >     >     >>     <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com
> >     <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com> <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com
> >     <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com>>
> >     >     <mailto: steve@pi4tech.com <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com>
> >     <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com <mailto:steve@pi4tech.com>>>>> wrote:
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>         Is at:
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Aug/att-0000/
> >     <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Aug/att-0000/>
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Aug/att-0000/
> >     >     <
> >     http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Aug/att-0000/>>
> >     >     >     >>         workingNote.pdf
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>         Please read and comment as soon as possible.
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>         Cheers
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>         Steve T
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>     --
> >     >     >     >>     L.G. Meredith
> >     >     >     >>     Partner
> >     >     >     >>     Biosimilarity LLC
> >     >     >     >>     505 N 72nd St
> >     >     >     >>     Seattle, WA 98103
> >     >     >     >>
> >     >     >     >>     +1 206.650.3740
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------
> >     >     >     >     Marco Carbone
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     Dept. of Computer Science
> >     >     >     >     Queen Mary University of London
> >     >     >     >     Mile End Road
> >     >     >     >     E1 4NS London
> >     >     >     >     United Kingdom
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     Phone: +44 (0) 207 882 3659
> >     >     >     >     Fax:      +44 (0) 208 980 6533
> >     >     >     >     email:   carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
> >     >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>>
> >     >     >     <mailto: carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
> >     >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>>> <mailto:
> >     carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
> >     >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>>
> >     >     >     <mailto: carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>
> >     >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk
> >     <mailto:carbonem@dcs.qmul.ac.uk>>>>
> >     >     >     >     home:   http://www.dcs.qmul.ac.uk/~carbonem
> >     <http://www.dcs.qmul.ac.uk/%7Ecarbonem>
> >     >     <http://www.dcs.qmul.ac.uk/%7Ecarbonem>
> >     >     >     < http://www.dcs.qmul.ac.uk/%7Ecarbonem
> >     <http://www.dcs.qmul.ac.uk/%7Ecarbonem>>
> >     >     >     >     < http://www.dcs.qmul.ac.uk/%7Ecarbonem>
> >     >     >     >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > --
> >     >     >     > L.G. Meredith
> >     >     >     > Partner
> >     >     >     > Biosimilarity LLC
> >     >     >     > 505 N 72nd St
> >     >     >     > Seattle, WA 98103
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > +1 206.650.3740
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     > --
> >     >     > L.G. Meredith
> >     >     > Partner
> >     >     > Biosimilarity LLC
> >     >     > 505 N 72nd St
> >     >     > Seattle, WA 98103
> >     >     >
> >     >     > +1 206.650.3740
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > --
> >     > L.G. Meredith
> >     > Partner
> >     > Biosimilarity LLC
> >     > 505 N 72nd St
> >     > Seattle, WA 98103
> >     >
> >     > +1 206.650.3740
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > L.G. Meredith
> > Partner
> > Biosimilarity LLC
> > 505 N 72nd St
> > Seattle, WA 98103
> >
> > +1 206.650.3740
>
>


-- 
L.G. Meredith
Partner
Biosimilarity LLC
505 N 72nd St
Seattle, WA 98103

+1 206.650.3740



Received on Wednesday, 9 August 2006 09:33:54 GMT

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