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Re: Straw-man Proposal for our mission statement

From: <Daniel_Austin@grainger.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:22:38 -0500
To: steve@enigmatec.net
Cc: arkin@intalio.com, Daniel_Austin@grainger.com, david.burdett@commerceone.com, jjd@eigner.com, public-ws-chor@w3.org, ygoland@bea.com
Message-ID: <OFFA210C6A.601CAD89-ON86256D35.006A5536@grainger.com>


I agree with this as well. I'm not against using WSDL - I'm against tying
this set of choreography specifications to WSDL as a normative and
exclusive target.


Regards,

D-


*************************************************
Dr. Daniel Austin
Sr. Technical Architect / Architecture Team Lead
daniel_austin@notes.grainger.com <----- Note change!
847 793 5044
Visit http://www.grainger.com

"If I get a little money, I buy books. If there is anything left over, I
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                      Steve Ross-Talbot                                                                                          
                      <steve@enigmatec.        To:       "Jean-Jacques Dubray" <jjd@eigner.com>                                  
                      net>                     cc:       "'Yaron Y. Goland'" <ygoland@bea.com>, "'Assaf Arkin'"                  
                                                <arkin@intalio.com>, "'Burdett, David'" <david.burdett@commerceone.com>,         
                      05/29/2003 12:07          <Daniel_Austin@grainger.com>, <public-ws-chor@w3.org>                            
                      PM                       Subject:  Re: Straw-man Proposal for our mission statement                        
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                 




+1 from me too.

Steve T

On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 07:27  am, Jean-Jacques Dubray wrote:

>
> +1
>
> Jean-Jacques
>
>
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Yaron Y. Goland [mailto:ygoland@bea.com]
>>> Sent: Dienstag, 27. Mai 2003 21:12
>>> To: Jean-Jacques Dubray; 'Assaf Arkin'
>>> Cc: 'Burdett, David'; Daniel_Austin@grainger.com;
> public-ws-chor@w3.org
>>> Subject: RE: Straw-man Proposal for our mission statement
>>>
>>> Based on this thread I would like to put forward a proposal to the
> group
>>> for
>>> a set of requirements that I hope can bring this thread to a
> successful
>>> conclusion:
>>>
>>> "The WS-Chor specification MUST NOT adopt a design that prevents it
> from
>>> taking full advantage of all features in WSDL 1.2. The WS-Chor
>>> specification
>>> MAY adopt a design that enables the use of alternative message
> description
>>> than WSDL 1.2 where and when the working group decides this is
> appropriate
>>> and does not conflict with any other requirements."
>>>
>>> I would then propose that we table this issue until we finish with
>>> the
>>> requirements and start doing design so we can look at exactly what an
>>> abstract design would require and then decide if we want to try it.
>>>
>>>                      Yaron
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Jean-Jacques Dubray [mailto:jjd@eigner.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:16 PM
>>>> To: 'Yaron Y. Goland'; 'Assaf Arkin'; 'Jean-Jacques Dubray'
>>>> Cc: 'Burdett, David'; Daniel_Austin@grainger.com;
> public-ws-chor@w3.org
>>>> Subject: RE: Straw-man Proposal for our mission statement
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The cost of abstraction is way overestimated here. The abstraction
> is
>>>> already built, it is called a message and a message exchange
> pattern.
>>>> Now we have the choice to directly use the WSDL message definition
> or
>>>> rather define something like:
>>>>
>>>> <message name="ProcessPO">
>>>> <message name="AckPO>
>>>> <mep name="ProcessPO">
>>>>
>>>> <binding message="ProcessPO" type="WSDL" version="1.2">
>>>>                     <portType="">
>>>> </binding>
>>>> <binding MEP="ProcessPO" type="ebXML" version="2.0>
>>>>         <BPSS
>>>> URI=http://oasis.org/bunchOfStandardsCollabs/aPOCollaboration">
>>>>         <businessTransactionActivity name="ProcessPO>
>>>> </binding>
>>>> <binding message="AckPO" type="PlainOldFax" >
>>>>         <fax number="555-1234"/>
>>>> </binding>
>>>>
>>>> so please, let's reasonable on our assertions.
>>>>
>>>> I am currently on travel in beautiful Berlin, with limited email and
> web
>>>> access. So I will respond more thoroughly to the emails this
> week-end.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> JJ-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Yaron Y. Goland [mailto:ygoland@bea.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Montag, 19. Mai 2003 18:50
>>>>>> To: Assaf Arkin; Jean-Jacques Dubray
>>>>>> Cc: 'Burdett, David'; Daniel_Austin@grainger.com;
>>>> public-ws-chor@w3.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: Straw-man Proposal for our mission statement
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 on tying to WSDL and +1 on Asaf's point that there is a cost to
>>>>>> abstraction. The only way to 'abstract' away dependency on
> something
>>>> is to
>>>>>> completely re-invent the thing being depended on and then define
> how
>>>> your
>>>>>> re-invention maps to the original. This is an extremely expensive
>>>> process
>>>>>> that causes significant harm to interoperability and should only
> be
>>>>>> undertaken when there is no other choice. The 'abstractions'
>>>> introduced
>>>>>> between WSDL and SOAP have caused so much interoperability pain
> that
>>>> two
>>>>>> different organizations had to be formed to sort out the resulting
>>>> mess.
>>>>>> What we need is a little less abstraction and a lot more
>>>> interoperability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                         Yaron
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: public-ws-chor-request@w3.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:public-ws-chor-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Assaf Arkin
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:30 PM
>>>>>>> To: Jean-Jacques Dubray
>>>>>>> Cc: 'Burdett, David'; Daniel_Austin@grainger.com;
>>>> public-ws-chor@w3.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Straw-man Proposal for our mission statement
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jean-Jacques Dubray wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't understand your argument, why won't you get everything
> for
>>>> free
>>>>>>>> as long as you have a binding to WSDL whether it is direct or
> let's
>>>> say
>>>>>>>> indirect for the lack of a better word. The advantage of the
> later
>>>> is
>>>>>>>> that in addition of getting everything the ws-arch has to
> offer,
>>>> you
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> also re-use the formalism of ws-chor for other technologies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just don't see those other technologies as being interesting
>>>> that's
>>>>>>> all. My personal opinion. In a W3C working group I would prefer
> to
>>>> pick
>>>>>>> all the relevant technologies that the W3C maps out as
> interesting
>>>> as
>>>>>>> part of the WSA. So far I've only heard of WSDL. If it boils
> down to
>>>> one
>>>>>>> technology and that makes my life easier, all the better. What
> other
>>>>>>> technologies do you suggest we look into?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Having a "binding" framework that relates ws-chor to WSDL
> garanties
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the design of ws-chor is now decoupled from the evolution of
> WSDL,
>>>> we
>>>>>>>> would only change the binding not the core choreography
> language.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We can clearly see the limitations of a tight coupling between
> BPML
>>>> or
>>>>>>>> BPEL and web services, now that WSDL is shifting from
> operations to
>>>>>>>> MEPs, one has to adjust the corresponding specs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is how I understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Option 1: based on WSDL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can't use other technologies. Need to be updated when WSDL gets
>>>> updated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Option 2: abstacted with binding to WSDL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can use other technologies. Needs to be updated when WSDL gets
>>>> updated.
>>>>>>> Extra level of indirection.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it's obvious why I would prefer no#1, but just for the
> sake
>>>> of
>>>>>>> being verbose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Either way if I use some normative specification and that
>>>> specification
>>>>>>> evolves I would want to use the new version, be it WSDL, XSDL,
>>>> XPath,
>>>>>>> whatever. So either way we need to update the specification. It
> may
>>>>>>> affect language section 4 or it may affect binding appendix A,
> but
>>>>>>> that's all the same. I don't see a real big differentiaor
> between 1
>>>> and
>>>>>>> 2 to suggest one is better than the other. And as you guess I've
>>>> already
>>>>>>> planned for it so I know what it entails and it doesn't seem
> like a
>>>> big
>>>>>>> issue to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Option 2 is simply more complicated to support and require
> invention
>>>> of
>>>>>>> an abstract layer and invention of a binding layer which makes
> the
>>>>>>> specification, implementations, interoperability, RI, etc more
>>>>>>> complicated. That's good if it actually buys you anything. What
> does
>>>> it
>>>>>>> buy you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've heard before the argument that if we only wrote the spec to
> not
>>>> so
>>>>>>> directly rely on WSDL we could also use IDL. Well, by the time
> we go
>>>> to
>>>>>>> finish the spec the problem was already taken care of and you
> have
>>>>>>> IDL-WSDL mapping that's well defined and readily available. It
> was
>>>> in my
>>>>>>> opinion - then and now - a waste of time to consider anything
> other
>>>> than
>>>>>>> WSDL.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've talked about simplifying the language which as I read it
> means
>>>> do
>>>>>>> less features now, do the rest later on. I'm going to buy a hat.
> If
>>>>>>> we're going to have to change the specification because using
> WSDL
>>>> is no
>>>>>>> longer the only interesting option before we get around to
> writing a
>>>> new
>>>>>>> version of the specification anyway, I'm going to eat it. Wish
> me
>>>>>> luck ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> arkin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jean-Jacques Dubray____________________
>>>>>>>> Chief Architect
>>>>>>>> Eigner  Precision Lifecycle Management
>>>>>>>> 200 Fifth Avenue
>>>>>>>> Waltham, MA 02451
>>>>>>>> 781-472-6317
>>>>>>>> jjd@eigner.com
>>>>>>>> www.eigner.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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Received on Thursday, 29 May 2003 15:22:39 GMT

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