WS Choreography Conference Call Notes
April 15, 2003



1       Role call



Martin Chapman

Oracle Corporation

Steve Ross-Talbot

Enigmatec Corporation



W3C Staff Contacts


Hugo Haas


Yves Laffon






Yaron Goland

BEA Systems

Mayilraj Krishnan

Cisco Systems Inc

David Burdett

Commerce One

Paul Lipton

Computer Associates

Duncan Johnston-Watt

Enigmatec Corporation

Francis McCabe

Fujitsu Ltd

William Vambenepe


Yoko Seki

Hitachi, Ltd.

Assaf Arkin

Intalio Inc.

Ravi Byakod

Intalio Inc.

Richard Bonneau


Abbie Barbir

Nortel Networks

Steve Pruitt


Greg Ritzinger


Nickolas Kavantzas

Oracle Corporation

Kevin Liu


Ivana Trickovic


Steven White

SeeBeyond Technology Corporation

Monica Martin

Sun Microsystems, Inc.

Carol McDonald

Sun Microsystems, Inc.

William Eidson

TIBCO Software

Melanie Kudela

Uniform Code Council

Daniel Austin

W. W. Grainger, Inc.

Leonard Greski

W. W. Grainger, Inc.

Ed Peters

webMethods, Inc.


2       Approval of minutes

1)     Minutes of last meeting approved.

3       Action item review

2)     Resubmit use cases.

a)     Not much seen about resubmitting of use cases

b)     Steve asked people who have not submitted to resubmit

c)     Action: Steve will strong arm people (includng himself) who have not submitted their use cases

3)     Editors mailing list

a)     In progress, due to be complete by the end of the week

4)     Dave Chappel, XML Editor Dave Chappel has submitted the email

5)     Carol  McDonald (Sun) and Dave Chappel (Sonic Software) would look into hosting a face2face meeting in the future

a)     Carol in progress

b)     David not on the call

6)     Harvesting Use Cases

a)     No progress Open Action: Steve

7)     Chairs to compose tasks for call

a)     No progress Open Action: (Martin/Steve)

8)     Extract requirements from the minutes

a)     Action: Martin

9)     Daniel

a)     Classifications in WSA recorded in the outline of the requirements closed

4       Face to Face Meeting

10)  WS Grainger

a)     Only issue WSG have is getting a decision from the group on dates and time

b)     Several emails received on current date 23-27 June proposed date is bad

c)     Propose 18-20 June instead postpone discussion until the end of the conf call. (see below)

5       Requirements document

11)  Steve: He needs to understand the timeline for the requirements document so that it can be published. Topic for future call: AGENDA ITEM

6       Discussion on Submitted Use Cases

12)  Led by Martin Chapman

13)  Submitted reference to doc to IRC (I'm not on IRC)

14)  Use case focuses on what artifacts are required to plug into choreography

a)     Company has process

b)     New partner comes along

c)     What do partner have to do to join in?

d)     Assumes choreography has been pre-defined by bigger company

e)     Two examples:

i)       Car manufacturer with suppliers

ii)      Global car reservation system

iii)     Common feature is that the owner of the process tells everyone else what to do.

f)      Question:

i)       Do artifacts mean what definitions, interfaces etc are required? They are not design level artifacts.

ii)      Non requirement is design time artifacts

g)     Can use the use case to drill down and identify the artifacts

h)     Also focuses on the external aspects and bringing two companies together. The internal artifacts are not exchanged, what can you observe so that you can plug in across company boundaries.

15)  Daniel

a)     Wondering if any information about what goes on behind the curtains is not necessary.

b)     Martin

i)       You only need to define what is on  the boundary in order to get the external boundaries to work

c)     Daniel

i)       E.g. Sabre would want to know information about the user and their preferences e.g. for seats, meals

d)     Martin

i)       This is part of the info that is in the interface.

e)     Martin/Daniel

i)       Reach consensus that if info like preferences is in the information then withdraws concern.

16)  Daniel

a)     Examples don't read like use cases they are more like a story board. Can we have a more formal description of them.

b)     Daniel will put out a proposal for formally recording use cases and the problem they are trying to address. Action Daniel

c)     Martin

i)       Use cases are usually about what happens in a real-life scenario this actor does this then another actor does that. No web services implications. They are not UML use cases and more a business scenarios.

d)     Daniel

i)       Thinks UML style use cases are more useful including the systems and the actors interactions.

e)     Martin

i)       My use case covers design time

f)      Decide to take off line

17)  Frank

a)     Talking about producing a standard language for defining choreographies. Need to define the business case very carefully, therefore something that is both business and technical. So far is only business focused, no description of technology used. We are in competition with Microsoft. They have more power than we do.

b)     Any work that the W3C does has to have a clear role in the business community.

c)     It is hard for us to be crisp and clear on what we do Martin agrees.

d)     Shouldn't be scared of Microsoft we are not in competition with them

e)     Steve

i)       Important to hold the line that we are complementary. Everything we have done so far is like this.

f)      David

i)       Should focus on Rosettanet and others and getting them involved.

g)     Frank

i)       David you missed the point. You have the specs written in the WSCL what is their role.

18)  Len

a)     What's a use case, is it design time or a higher level business artifact. The essential idea is that it looks at something outside the boundary and relates to the thing inside the boundary. So use cases can be at various levels of abstraction, from a business system with a workflow to a much more detailed interaction between subsystems. The challenge is that they (the use cases) are all over  the map and it might be helpful to refactor them into a specific format so that we can understand the level of abstraction that the use case is at.

19)  Steve

a)     Question? Daniel, we will present a UP based presentation on how to record use cases.

b)     Daniel

i)       Intention is to take advantage of his boss a Use Case expert and plans to use this to help propose a formal approach to defining use cases. Assumes this will be a UP based use case with pre conditions, post conditions, diagram, etc Action Daniel

c)     Len G ??

i)       Need to agree on the content of the use case.

d)     Daniel

i)       We should be able to cross reference the use cases with the requirements when we are done

20)  Martin

a)     Posts to IRC the links to use case work in the WS-I

b)     Can recast second example in the correct format for a "proper use case"

c)     Doesn't know how to describe a design-time use case. Action Will talk with Len offiline.

21)  Martin

a)     Discusses second use case

b)     Retailer offers B2C use case where as stock is depleted, the stock levels go down until a point is reached where the goods get re-ordered to replenish stock levels.

c)     Don't want to do this with a blocking RPC call, but instead come back later when the goods have been shipped. There is an extended asynchronous interaction between the warehouse and the manufacturer that results in the goods being retrieved. Resulting requirements

i)       Long running processes

ii)      Correlating messages

iii)     Etc.

22)  Steve

a)     The main issue is around time that causes a different approach. Do we encode time into the choreography?

b)     Do we also search for services based on the time they take to run?

c)     Martin

i)       That's part of the idea of the use case. Discussions on the list on timeouts have been useful.

d)     Ed peters

i)       Rosettanet PIPs have specific mention of timeouts as does BPSS

e)     Jean Jacques ??

i)       With current technologies can't query to search on services based on time

f)      Steve

i)       Question, is delivery within a timeframe important

g)     Len (Grainger)

i)       Yes it is important and the relationships are specified contractually

h)     ?? Jean

i)       Need to distinguish between a technical timeout and a business timeout

ii)      ?? Are both out of scope

(1)   Technical too low level, business timeout is contractually agreed

i)       Daniel ??

i)       We do need a requirement that exceptions are handled including timeouts

j)       ??

i)       One persons exception is another persons message

k)     David

i)       Need to separate the trigger from the message

23)  Frank ??

a)     Do we have guideline for what goes into the solution, e.g. is loose coupled?

b)     Ans. Not yet

24)  Conclusion

a)     Modeling business time is an issue we have to deal with (raised by Steve). Need to spend time on a future conference call. Topic for future call.

7       Choreography Data Formats reusable choreographies

25)  Last call was cut off on the issue of ontologies and naming we were swimming with the trout!

26)  Is there a trout repellant.

27)  Martin: We haven't adopted the trout

28)  It should be the bumble bee Steve says they have interesting choreography patterns

29)  Defer to next week as an agenda item. David can't take minutes and discuss at the same time !!

8       Review of the requirements document

30)  Daniel

a)     Has everyone looked at the Spring Fever edition of the requirements document?

b)     This is the 0.0 version of the document. It's a place to start. Nothing carved in stone. Not normative.

c)     Pay attention to editor's notes

d)     Interesting parts are the abstract and introduction

e)     Section 1.1 is controversial definition of a choreography

f)      Proposed a classification system for use cases in section 1.2

g)     Requirements numbering might not be sequential with gaps because requirements have been dropped

h)     The rest of the document is a place holder

i)       Editors will get text added in.

j)       Wants to know what has been forgotten feedback needed action all

31)  Frank

a)     Is it a use cases or a requirements document?

b)     Daniel its both

32)  Frank

a)     Should we include mission, goal and CSFs.

b)     Martin

i)       Thinks this is a good idea

c)     Daniel

i)       In WSA, used CSF analysis to determine the requirements worked very well for an architecture project

ii)      For choreography thought might be better to follow a use case driven choreography

iii)     But Frank (and others) think that a CSF approach is useful

d)     Len G

i)       Thinks that doing the CSFs will help us decide what should go in the Use Case.

e)     Frank

i)       Being able to tie back the specification back to the requirements and the CSF will be very useful for driving forward the specification.

f)      Len Gretsky

i)       Agrees this is a good idea

g)     Daniel

i)       Excusing himself from the discussion as he is the editor and will accept decision of the group

h)     Mike Champion

i)       Was not really pleased with the way the CSF worked in the WSA. There was a fair amount of confusion. Would prefer to see it driven more from use cases.

i)       Frank

i)       Use cases don't help tie down the loose ends but is better for exploring the space.

ii)      Thinks the WSA was not critical enough of the approach.

iii)     Need to understand why it did not work on WSA

j)       David

i)       Can we analyze the use cases to determine requirements and CSFs

k)     Steve

i)       Thinks he agrees with David

ii)      What can we do better through using the results of this work

l)       David

i)       Offered to lead the CSF part of the work based on doing similar stuff as a management consultant

m)    Len

i)       Action: Everyone should read the CSF part of the WSA spec to understand what it is about.

n)     Frank

i)       Suggested we should we spend time on CSFs during the F2F

33)  Steve to Daniel

a)     Two minutes to close the topic

34)  Daniel

a)     Please everyone read the document you must suggest alternate text and not just criticize

9       F2F Dates, straw poll

35)  Martin/Steve: we have to decide the date today to comply the W3C

36)  Melanie, Jeff , Yaron can't make 18-20 June

37)  Location, Grainger, Lake Forest, Illinois. 18-20 June, meeting for 2.5 days until Friday lunch

38)  Motion by Steve to schedule for 18-20 June  by Steve: No objections, motion passed

39)  Need volunteers to think about September F2F and let Jeff  know. Ideally in Europe.

a)     Look to hold it at SAP in Germany.

b)     Yves to look at holding it in Nice.

c)     Steve to look at an academic place: Edinburgh, St Andrews or Cambridge.

d)     There are also cheap rooms at the Baghdad Hilton Steve.

e)     How about Oz, September is when the Rugby World cup is held Duncan J-W.

f)      June will be hard for Hugo.


10  Summary of Actions

Outstanding actions

       All authors of use cases that have not resubmitted their use cases with business relevance are encouraged to do so.

       Hugo Haas: Creation of editors mailing list is in progress due to be complete by the end of the week

       Possible hosting of a future face 2 face meeting on the East Coast by Novel, Sun and Sonic respectively.

o      Carol McDonald (Sun) in progress

o      Dave Chappel (Sonic)  not on the call at this time

o      Greg Ritzinger (Novel) in progress

       Steve Ross-Talbot: Harvesting Use Cases - No progress

       Steve Ross-Talbot/Martin Chapman: Chairs to compose tasks for call open?

       Martin Chapman: Extract requirements from the minutes open?


New actions

11  Motions passed

Next face to face meeting will be on 18-20 June hosted by W.W Grainger, Lake Forest, Illinois.