1. Confirm scribe.
· The following is a list of recent scribes (in order): Yaron Goland, Daniel Austin, Jim Hendler, Peter Furniss, Ed Peters, Greg Ritzinger, Leonard Greski
· Approve minutes
· March 2003, Face to face minutes: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/chor/3/03/F2fMinutes.html
· 25 March 2003 Con call minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-ws-chor/2003Mar/att-0012/2003/2503-1.htm
2. Action Item Review
· Write up use cases 2003/03/25: Yaron
· Write up a use case of what he see the choreography group addressing
3. Discussion on submitted Use Cases
4. Glossary discussion
5. AOB.
|
Chairs: |
|
|
|
Oracle |
||
|
Enigmatec |
||
|
|
|
|
|
W3C Staff Contacts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Members:
|
Choreology Ltd |
|
|
Cisco Systems
Inc |
|
|
Commerce One |
|
|
EDS |
|
|
Hewlett-Packard |
|
|
Hitachi, Ltd. |
|
|
Intalio Inc. |
|
|
IONA |
|
|
IONA |
|
|
National Computerization
Agency |
|
|
Nortel
Networks |
|
|
Novell |
|
|
Oracle
Corporation |
|
|
Software AG |
|
|
Sun
Microsystems, Inc. |
|
|
Sun
Microsystems, Inc. |
|
|
TIBCO Software |
|
|
TIBCO Software |
|
|
W. W.
Grainger, Inc. |
|
|
W. W.
Grainger, Inc. |
|
|
webMethods,
Inc. |
|
|
Progress
Software |
|
|
University of
Maryland (Mind Lab) |
MChapman:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-chor/2003Mar/0272.html
Appointment of scribe
CM: scribe is carol
Action items to review
SRT: small business
approve 2 sets of minutes f2f and march 28
SRT: anyone have a
summary of use cases?
1 jim hendler 2 from martin 2 from david beddette 1 paul 2
monica 1
MM: need to make sure
that Monica's 2 use cases picked up
SRT: Also need to
correllate submitted with the ones from the F2F
SRT: Frank McCabe
submitted patient doctor waiting room
SRT: we will need to
segment use cases to understand what kind they are
RB: And all these use
cases are supposed to be accumulated into the overall
requirements
document? YES
Use case discussion
SRT: Next item discuss
use cases
SRT: MC categorizing use
cases clarifies what we want
DA: Lets just decide as
a group, for our purposes what we mean
scenario use case
"user scenario = group of use cases "
MC: That is upside down
from how I was thinking about it
use cases usually
talk about business domain issues
scenarios are
more lower level, 1 use case can have more than 1
scenarios
DA: I was talking about
Object O use case definition
MC The point is we just
need to define our terms and stick with it
Terms should be
first thing which goes into use case document
SRT: My use case is not
user oriented , not really message exchange
pattern, would
prefer to call it a choreographic pattern
basis of exchange
one can have to form a choreography
one is a pattern
oriented use case and one is a user oriented use case
DA: In uml use case is
defined as user interacting with a system
with web services
there is not always a human being at the other end
are you trying to
separate the use cases based on whether user is
involved or not
MCha: +1 to what Daniel
just said!
???: Actor could be
human or machine anything external to the system
MC: uml use cases always
talk about business problem , there is another level
more mechanical
level involving callbacks
JD: some of use are
interested in having a business justification
may want to
suppport a general pattern , but may help to have a business
example of use of
pattern
concerned that we
can define arbitrary patterns without a concrete use
MC: +1 to jdart
DC: +1 to what John
just said
MC: if we can't find a
real world example then why do the tech oriented
use case
JD: message
exchange pattern is so abstract that you don't immediately
see use need to be
able to map it on to real world scenarios
SRT: Summarize
previous conversation
MCha: I agree but want to
expand need to include business case but also
technical case
for WS standard for automating
how would a
machine processable standard fit into the equation?
MCha: use cases talked
about choreo but did not make it explicit how ws-
chor language
would assist in implementation of use cases
SRT: I agree. This is all
about composition and/or contract enforcement.
SRT: To summarize whats being
asked for is business context to justify use
case and we also
need to deal with those use cases with respect to what a
standard for chor
will mean contract enforcement composition
*** ACTION: ALL actions required re-submit use cases with
business context
Editor appointment for
requirments document
DA: Suggestions
for editor appointment: who has been an editor before .
Need to establish
2 mailing lists ws-chor editors and comment mailing list
ws-editors-comments
commment mailing list editors mailing list online
place for editors
call something for Hugo and yves to sort out .
MC: For comments could
use bugzilla
one list for
editing issues and one for public comments on a particular
document would
send things to bugzilla
have to go thru
disposition process for w3c
is that email
list connected to bugzilla?
HH: don't know
YL does not know
either
*** ACTION: HH/YL Check connection of mailing
(public-ws-chor-commnents) lists to bugzilla
DA: Daniel says: need
editor's mailing list, public comments
DC: Asked a couple of
questions with comments (public-ws-chor-commnents) going to
bugzilla , will
this auto create a record ?
DA: Also need editor's
call set up
MC: Reported that
mailing lists are automatically archived
DC: Who receives it,
just editors
DA: anyone can send
email, archived , public for editors to discuss
without putting
everything on the main list
everyone will not
get mailed for every issue
DA: process issue:
should adopt issues resolution process being used
by Arch group
they have a w3c issuse resolution process, that way we have way of
dealing with
issues also we should decide to use xml spec dtd for all docs
there is a schema
if you are brave enough to use it, just make sure docs are conformant
to latest xml
spec language definition save later hassles for editing
SRT: I'll take lead from the wise
DA: one thing we can do
to help ourselves is to take advantage free
license for xml
spy build in tool for editng w3c doc
ask hugo to
request license for group for tool
*** ACTION: Hugo to ask for XML Spy licences
*** ACTION: Yves/Hugo setup an editors ML
SRT: we need to sort out
editorship of the requirements martin we had daniel from Grainger abbie
from nortel
volunteer to edit requirements doc
MC: Yes, both worked
together on ws-arch doc. For requirements phase 2 people who worked together
before is ideal
DA: What is realistic
time for a first draft
MC: f2f june time frame
, have a good draft for discussion then we don't have a solid offer for hosting
nothing final for
hosting from Grainger
DA: have 1 week or 2 to
look at it and have a doc ready for f2f in june
???: does doc include
all use case work?
???: what is methodology
for requ?
DA: It is iterative ,
in inception phase 6 months a lot of churn drafts
then goes into
passive phase making changes based on comments as
needed a lot of
work up front on use cases after that it dies down , then just
maintenance based
on that thinking must do a lot of work on use cases and general
classes of requ
irements. 2 sources of requirements use cases and requirments of more general
cross functional
nature.
like arch must
obey these standards, language, have certain interoperabityy
there is a
coherence to this process and if we can all understand process
then we can do
good job with ws-chor
DC: We would like to
offers xml schema editing tool from excelon sure they would
be happy to
donate licenses (XML Sylus). It does a lot of things including
bpm , xslt
transform debugging ...
DA Everyone would
be glad to look at it
*** ACTION: DC to send details to private list
Use case discussion
continued
MM: My use cases are on
mailing list now
(JD)??: In another work group
editor and chair iterated got it down to a few use
cases that
capture others for exampel web site mgmt use case emcompassing others
JH: Brainstorming
then categorization JIM
SRT: Can JH send examples
JD: I've played around
with doctor use case could generate all kinds of scenarios
good candidate
for one that could be used for scenarios
patient has to
negotiate for time date , receptionist consults doctor
JH: Web Ont Use cases
and requirements doc is at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/webont-req/
Last Call version
due out tomorrow.
(note that WS
chor will be asked to do a review of this doc...)
SRT: Do we have
volunteers to walk thru use cases?
SRT: Doctor/Patient,
Frank was originator of this but not on call
are any authors
on line?
DB: will go through his
use case originally sent to architecture group
international
procurement exercise similar to many used in practice
company in
detroit wants to outsource electr components for car
delivery of goods
important buyer arranges for seller to pick them up
buyer seller have
to cooperate for order pick up and delivery
make request to
buyer to pick up agree when they picked up e
is an
international choreography also must send out customs declaration
because it is
internation must hold additional information, can have
different details
in the message
MC: Davids use case at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-chor/2003Mar/0216.html ???: Martin can you recap what aspects of
this choreo we should explore in this group
3 or more
organizations participating as peers can adopt same choreo but detailed
content of
message can vary 3 point choreo describes what goes right but must think
how to handle
when things go wrong not delivered , message does not go thru
SRT: If you look at
detroit buyer who is buying from korea and must send customs info
in your use case
have you described the observable behaviour for 3 parties?
DB: You can not see
inside for buyer or shipper we want to be able to re-use choreo in different
context , but
interaction pattern is the same but detail is different
SRT: But interaction is
not the same
DB: korean shipper
sends 1 message with 2 documents
don't want them
to be different if you think of all variations
*** POSSIBLE AGENDA ITEM
MC: This is a much
bigger issue than the use cases, discuss it next week
DA: There is a well
known solution in cases where you have different formats for docs abstract
general doc
structure
agnostic to actual format abstract general data structure then
MC: We should save this discussion for next week
SRT: That should be on
the agenda next week to go into more detail on this
issue
*** POSSIBLE AGENDA ITEM
DA: Next week we should
try to classify general groups of general requirements
SRT: Will come back to
daniel separately for that to put on agenda
JD: The large issue we
are punting the external internal issue , not
sure if good to
punt on that
*** POSSIBLE AGENDA ITEM
MC: We need to discuss the
issue of resuable choreographies and data formats
JD: does not object to
deferring right now
SRT: It is on agenda for
next week
JM: I would think the
use cases will help to inform the internal/external (non ;-) issue
Glen: Definition
of use case and usage scenario (see suggestion from HH)
JD: Schedule
discussion of specific use case and make sure author is present
SRT: will take input from
everyone for how to organize agenda for issues
Glossary
SRT: Glossary was
submitted by monica from Sun
*** ACTION: MM to post gloassary document on publlic list
for review
DA: A lot of things
defined in ws overall doc, need to work with that
MC: propose changes or
additions, not manage our own hugo how will we do the approval process ?
HH: There is an issue
about glossary synchronization see how ws-description group is doing it.
ws architecture
has own high level definitions they are commenting on definitions they don't
like
there can be a
ws-chor specific glossary and then integrated and resolve discrepancies
MC: Compile our own
terms and then say Hugo can you put them into
bigger doc
HH: There are a bunch
of defintioins but not maintained because delegated to this group, so owned by
this group
*** ACTION: HH will
take a look at monica's gloassary
document
HH: comment on use
case and scenarios and glossary ws-descr and ws arch argueing on which is
detailed view
MC: Since we are talking
about this again recommend we take the same conclusion and add this to ws
glossary
*** ACTION: Hugo to dig up the meaning of use case and usage scenario
DA: have we banned the
word orchestration ?
MC: yes for the moment
DA: we should point out
why this is not there
MC: just put for
orchestration see choreography
AOB
DA: Need to figure out
f2f need to announce 8 wks before event
*** ACTION: CM will check with Sun about f2f
*** ACTION DC can check with sonic
DC: 2nd week of june is
not possible for a few of us who are at JavaOne.
sun, sonic would
be burlington close to boston
MC: In order to get 8 wk
deadline need to know within a few weeks get back to
use soon
MC: Need to start on
september for europe , kevin offered germany HD
(GR)?: I'm looking into
Novell (MA) hosting too
MC: who is in S. France,
yves?
CM: YES YES French
riviera
SUMMARY OF ACTIONS
*** ACTION: ALL actions required re-submit use cases with business
context
*** ACTION: HH/YL Check connection of mailing
(public-ws-chor-commnents) lists to bugzilla
*** ACTION: Hugo to ask for XML Spy licences
*** ACTION: Yves/Hugo setup an editors ML
*** ACTION: DC to send details to private list
*** ACTION: MM to post gloassary document on publlic list for
review
*** ACTION: HH will
take a look at monica's glossary
document
*** ACTION: CM will check with Sun about F2F
*** ACTION DC can check with sonic for F2F
Summary of recorded
actions (from IRC)
ACTION: Yves/Hugo to investigate on how to connect
public-ws-chor-comments with bugzilla [1]
recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2003/04/01-ws-chor-irc#T21-41-40
ACTION: Hugo to ask for XML Spy licences [2]
recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2003/04/01-ws-chor-irc#T21-46-07
ACTION: Yves/Hugo setup an editors ML [3]
recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2003/04/01-ws-chor-irc#T21-46-18
ACTION: discuss the issue of resuable choreographies and data
formats [4]
recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2003/04/01-ws-chor-irc#T22-12-37
ACTION: Hugo to dig up the meaning of use case and usage scenario
[5]
recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2003/04/01-ws-chor-irc#T22-22-30
ACTION: carol will check with Sun about f2f [6]
recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2003/04/01-ws-chor-irc#T22-23-40
ACTION: hugo xml spy license [7]
recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2003/04/01-ws-chor-irc#T22-27-55