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RE: Internal processes and/or external choreographies (was RE: Events and States ...

From: Stephen White <swhite@SeeBeyond.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:50:18 -0700
Message-ID: <EDDE2977F3D216428E903370E3EBDDC9156925@MAIL01.stc.com>
To: "Cummins, Fred A" <fred.cummins@eds.com>, "Assaf Arkin" <arkin@intalio.com>, "Patil, Sanjaykumar" <sanjay.patil@iona.com>
Cc: "Martin Chapman" <martin.chapman@oracle.com>, "Burdett, David" <david.burdett@commerceone.com>, "Cummins, Fred A" <fred.cummins@eds.com>, <jdart@tibco.com>, <public-ws-chor@w3.org>
Fred,
 
Based on the interest in pi-calculus and the languages that have used pi-calculus as a model (e.g., BPEL, BPML, WSCI), I was expecting that the language produced by this group would be similar to these past efforts. IMHO, such languages are for business people who implement the technology (programmers) and not for the business people who manage and design them. Putting a one-to-one graphical front-end within a tool that has nice usability features will not help with this situation. 
 
The work of OMG through a business process definition metamodel and BPMI through BPMN will provide the abstraction layer that will business users and managers to design, manage, and monitor both internal processes and choreographies. But this kind of work is out of scope for this working group.
 
I know that we haven't fully clarified the scope of work for this group, but from following the discussion and seeing the complexity of the use cases, I wasn't expecting a ready-for-business people language from this particular working group. 
 
-Steve

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Cummins, Fred A [mailto:fred.cummins@eds.com] 
	Sent: Fri 4/11/2003 4:09 PM 
	To: Stephen White; Assaf Arkin; Patil, Sanjaykumar 
	Cc: Martin Chapman; Burdett, David; Cummins, Fred A; jdart@tibco.com; public-ws-chor@w3.org 
	Subject: RE: Internal processes and/or external choreographies (was RE: Events and States ...
	
	
	Steve,
	 
	I believe the choreography language should express the exchange at the level of abstraction that is appropriate for business people to understand.  This does not mean that the form of expression is appropriate for business people.  I beleive we should focus on the XML form of expression as that is the form that will be appropriate for retrieval from registries and exchanged between potential participants in a web services exchange.  A form suitable for business users should be deferred since this requires different skills and can be done in different ways by different tools without adverse impact on the computational web services protocol specifications and implementations.
	 
	Fred

		-----Original Message-----
		From: Stephen White [mailto:swhite@SeeBeyond.com]
		Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 1:48 PM
		To: Assaf Arkin; Patil, Sanjaykumar
		Cc: Martin Chapman; Burdett, David; Cummins, Fred A; jdart@tibco.com; public-ws-chor@w3.org
		Subject: RE: Internal processes and/or external choreographies (was RE: Events and States ...
		
		
		I believe that there is another layer of work to be done to create a presentation layer for the business people. If BPEL and BPML are examples of the language that might be developed (in style, not in content), a direct presentation of this kind language will not be suitable for the business user or manager. Especially if the choreography is based on the pi-calculus model. There needs to be a higher level of abstraction for the presentation and then a binding to the lower-level language. Unless this group comes up with an XML language that can be canonically notated and still be acceptable to the business user, then the output of this working group will not address the business user directly. That would be a nice feature of the language, but should probably not be a requirement.
		 
		-Steve

			-----Original Message----- 
			From: Assaf Arkin [mailto:arkin@intalio.com] 
			Sent: Fri 4/11/2003 10:31 AM 
			To: Patil, Sanjaykumar 
			Cc: Martin Chapman; Burdett, David; Cummins, Fred A; jdart@tibco.com; public-ws-chor@w3.org 
			Subject: Re: Internal processes and/or external choreographies (was RE: Events and States ...
			
			


			+1
			
			We don't expect business people to write XML documents, whether it's a
			simple language or a complex one. Nor do we expect them to write
			specifications using some BNF syntax or pseudo code. We expect them to
			use high-end modeling tools with clear visual notation, something that
			makes it very easy to express and communicate intent.
			
			The question is, how do you get that high level representation of the
			business process down to the IT level and ensure that the implementation
			conforms to the business intent? One way to do it is to agree on some
			abstract model that is common to the modeling tool and the execution
			tools, and use XML as a way to transform the key parts of the
			information, i.e. the sequencing rules - colors and shapes are not
			important in the choreography definition.
			
			arkin
			
			Patil, Sanjaykumar wrote:
			
			>I am wondering whether this "glue" (or silver line, etc) also address the much blamed for Busienss-IT divide issue. I mean, does the discussion around external/internal also apply to solving the use case where - the sole responsibility of IT is to take care of the nitty-gritty of standalone services, and the Business folks are empowered with "building and owning" the dynamic, flexible business processes.
			>
			>I have seen in numerous recent articles (and books also, see Howard Smith's book, I forgot the name) an outcry for supporting business processes as first class applications and not necessarily to be perceived as a solution for integrating legacy applications.
			>
			>In doing so, a critical requirement it seems is that the designer, user and manager of the business processes should be the business folks themselves. I guess we don't expect the business people to read XML language itself, but perhaps we can serve them better by limiting the details when it comes to providing them a limited but complete view.
			>
			>Sanjay Patil
			>Distinguished Engineer
			>sanjay.patil@iona.com
			>-------------------------------------------------------
			>IONA Technologies
			>2350 Mission College Blvd. Suite 650
			>Santa Clara, CA 95054
			>Tel: (408) 350 9619
			>Fax: (408) 350 9501
			>-------------------------------------------------------
			>Making Software Work Together TM
			>
			>
			>-----Original Message-----
			>From: Assaf Arkin [mailto:arkin@intalio.com]
			>Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 9:57 AM
			>To: Martin Chapman
			>Cc: 'Burdett, David'; 'Cummins, Fred A'; jdart@tibco.com;
			>public-ws-chor@w3.org
			>Subject: Re: Internal processes and/or external choreographies (was RE:
			>Events and States ...
			>
			>
			>
			>I agree.
			>
			>We have different opinion on how much capabilities we want in the
			>language in terms of what it can describe. Some want a language that is
			>only capable of expressing shared states that are general enough but
			>satisfactory for most B2B use cases. Others want more capabilities that
			>*in addition* to the above and not as replacement, also support more
			>complex scenarios, e.g. the ones you would see in A2A or optionally
			>exposing part of the white/black box.
			>
			>We can go either way, but if we fail to consider the importance of the
			>"glue" requirement, I have the feeling we will end up with a superb
			>specification that has no practical use.
			>
			>arkin
			>
			>
			>Martin Chapman wrote:
			>
			> 
			>
			>>Maybe the answer is staring us in the face:
			>>
			>>When we talk about external definitions we seem to be implying a shared
			>>state machine. There is a common understanding between all parties about
			>>who is playing what role, what states each role can  get into, the
			>>(shared) state of the process itself etc. [is this what is commonly
			>>called a global model?]
			>>
			>>On the other hand an internal defintion seems to define a state machine
			>>that is not shared  (tho may or may not be visible i.e. could be black
			>>box or white box). So what states you need, what tranistions you make,
			>>how you name other parties is totally private.
			>>
			>>Obviously the two have to be glued together at some point.
			>>As a group we have to decide whether we are working on shared state
			>>machines vs priavte ones, or both. In all case we will have to look at
			>>the "glue" requirements.
			>>
			>>Martin.
			>>
			>>
			>>
			>>   
			>>
			>
			>
			> 
			>
			
			
			--
			"Those who can, do; those who can't, make screenshots"
			
			----------------------------------------------------------------------
			Assaf Arkin                                          arkin@intalio.com
			Intalio Inc.                                           www.intalio.com
			The Business Process Management Company                 (650) 577 4700
			
			
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Received on Friday, 11 April 2003 19:50:25 UTC

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