W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-ws-addressing@w3.org > December 2005

Updated F2F Afternoon Minutes (was: RE: TAG requests help with examples of WS-Addressing)

From: <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:05:06 -0500
To: "David Orchard" <dorchard@bea.com>
Cc: "David Hull" <dmh@tibco.com>, public-ws-addressing@w3.org, www-tag@w3.org
Message-ID: <OF9065BB2F.23741285-ON852570DC.0078AC59-852570DC.00795193@lotus.com>

I've checked in what I take to be all of Dave's requested changes to the 
WSA examples in the F2F minutes [1], except that for the reason mentioned 
in my note below, I did not do anything with the WSDL.  I can still add a 
link to an email if Dave decides to post one.  Dave: thanks for all the 
help with these.

Also, I noticed that [2], which is linked from the minutes, is not 
currently world-readable.  We should probably fix that, but since it's 
Henry's and Dave's draft, I wanted to check with them first.    Anyway, I 
think these minutes are ready to be considered as the formal record of the 
meeting.  BTW:  if you reply on a matter unrelated to WSA, please drop 
public-ws-addressing from the cc:.  Thank you.

Noah

[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/12/06-Afternoon-minutes.html
[2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50.xml

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn 
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------








Noah Mendelsohn
12/16/2005 11:17 AM

        To:     "David Orchard" <dorchard@bea.com>
        cc:     "David Hull" <dmh@tibco.com>, public-ws-addressing@w3.org, 
www-tag@w3.org
        Subject:        RE: TAG requests help with examples of 
WS-Addressing



Excellent, thank you Dave.  Just the feedback I was looking for.   

This information presents us with a bit of a choice in editing the 
minutes, either: 

1.  As a true record of the meeting, the new information should not be 
recorded, but we could add an editor's link to your note with the 
corrections.  Advantage:  a true record of the meeting  Disadvantage: the 
minutes live on with misleading examples. 

-or- 

2. We could make the corrections (except for the ones in your point 7 
which, as you suggest we can mention in a note) but somehow highlight 
them.   E.g. 

        <wsa:epr> 
            <wsa:address>http://example.com/diskcontroller</wsa:address> 
            <wsa:referenceParameter>   <! **Added during editing **> 
                     <d:driveNum>3</d:driveNum> 
            </wsa:referenceParameter>  <! **Added during editing **> 
        </wsa:epr> 

Advantages:  the minutes allow you to see what was discussed in the room 
and also the corrections Disadvantages: visually cumbersome. 

-or- 

3. Just make the corrections, and put in just a brief mention that the 
examples include some corrections made after the meeting, but with no 
indication of where they are. 

I don't like having #1 because the point of this exercise was to get 
correct examples out for reference.  Nonetheless, as editor of the 
minutes, I feel I need the group's permission to provide anything other 
than a true record of the meeting.  My preference is for #3, next choice 
#2.   I'll take any input that comes in within the next day or so. 
Otherwise, I'll assume that silence is assent to my choice of either #3 or 
#2 (likely #3).  OK? 

Dave Orchard writes: 

> I can provide a more appropriate wsdl binding and interface if desired. 

Well, the WSDL wasn't discussed in the meeting in any detail at all, so 
I'd rather not hoist it up to the ungrey part of the record.  That said, 
if you'd like to post an email or a note in the w3c archives with a clean 
WSDL, I'd be glad to add a link the minutes saying something like:  "DaveO 
has since given us a clean copy of corresponding WSDL at <link>".  Does 
that sound like a good way to do it? 

 Thanks. 

Noah 

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn 
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------







"David Orchard" <dorchard@bea.com> 
Sent by: www-tag-request@w3.org 
12/15/05 06:12 PM 
        
        To:        <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com> 
        cc:        "David Hull" <dmh@tibco.com>, 
<public-ws-addressing@w3.org>, <www-tag@w3.org> 
        Subject:        RE: TAG requests help with examples of 
WS-Addressing




Some corrections.

1.
<wsa:epr>
   <wsa:address>http://example.com/diskcontroller</wsa:address>
   <d:driveNum>3</d:driveNum>
</wsa:epr>
Should be
<wsa:epr>
   <wsa:address>http://example.com/diskcontroller</wsa:address>
   <wsa:referenceParameter>
                    <d:driveNum>3</d:driveNum>
   </wsa:referenceParameter>
</wsa:epr>

2.
<soap:header>
  <d:driveNum>3</d:driveNum>
</soap:header>

Should be:
<soap:header>
  <d:driveNum wsa:isReferenceParameter="true">3</d:driveNum>
</soap:header>

3.
Add ReferenceParameter into
<wsa:replyTo mustUnderstand="true">

<wsa:address>http://example.com/orderingClient</wsa:address>
                <d:orderRequestID>3</d:orderRequestID>
            </wsa:replyTo>

4.
Add isReferenceParameter to
<d:orderRequestID>3</d:orderRequestID>


5.
I had also posted a WSDL fragment and I think that would be really
useful, to show how WSDL relates to the messages

<binding name="reservationSOAPBinding" 

<DaveO> interface="tns:reservationInterface" 

<DaveO> type="http://www.w3.org/2005/08/wsdl/soap12" 

<DaveO> wsoap:protocol="http://www.w3.org/2003/05/soap/bindings/HTTP"> 

<DaveO> <wsaw:UsingAddressing wsdl:required="true" /> 

<DaveO> <operation ref="tns:opCheckAvailability" 

<DaveO> wsoap:mep="http://www.w3.org/2003/05/soap/mep/request-response"
/> 

<DaveO> <fault ref="tns:invalidDataFault" wsoap:code="soap:Sender" /> 

<DaveO> </binding> 

I can provide a more appropriate wsdl binding and interface if desired.

6. minor nits

wsa:Address, EndpointReference, ReplyTo should be capitalized.

7. We didn't include the mandatory wsa:Action soap header block, and
that should be noted.  I don't think we need to add it in as it dilutes
the EPR message.  We also don't include messageId (which is needed in
the ReplyTo case) and the To field - which is discussed later on.

Cheers,
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-ws-addressing-request@w3.org
[mailto:public-ws-addressing-
> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 2:41 PM
> To: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com
> Cc: David Hull; public-ws-addressing@w3.org; www-tag@w3.org
> Subject: Re: TAG requests help with examples of WS-Addressing
> 
> 
> (replying to my own message, which happens to be the latest in this
> thread)
> 
> I wrote:
> 
> > We've just completed our F2F discussion and I think that
> > exactly the point you make below was well covered.  Thank you,
> > and thanks to everyone else who's contributed useful feedback
> > on this.  It's been a big help to us.
> 
> At the F2F, I reviewed a couple of scenarios that I believe to be more
> representative of simple uses of WSA than the WSRF-based one that
Henry
> first proposed.  Draft (unapproved) minutes of that session are
available.
>  Please take a look at the scenarios minuted at [1] --  I hope I got
these
> close enough to serve as useful guidelines to basic understanding of
WSA,
> which was the TAG's goal in this exercise.   And again, thank you all
for
> your help!
> 
> Noah
> 
> [1]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/12/06-Afternoon-minutes.html#item05
> 
> --------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn
> IBM Corporation
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> 1-617-693-4036
> --------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noah Mendelsohn
> 12/06/2005 05:21 PM
> 
>         To:     David Hull <dmh@tibco.com>
>         cc:     public-ws-addressing@w3.org, www-tag@w3.org
>         Subject:        Re: TAG requests help with examples of
> WS-Addressing
> 
> 
> Thank you.  We've just completed our F2F discussion and I think that
> exactly the point you make below was well covered.  Thank you, and
thanks
> to everyone else who's contributed useful feedback on this.  It's been
a
> big help to us.
> 
> --------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn
> IBM Corporation
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> 1-617-693-4036
> --------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David Hull <dmh@tibco.com>
> 12/06/2005 05:14 PM
> 
>         To:     noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com
>         cc:     public-ws-addressing@w3.org, www-tag@w3.org
>         Subject:        Re: TAG requests help with examples of
> WS-Addressing
> 
> 
> What jumps out here is
> Note that the one thing that's missing from the above is any
indication
> that there's a Reference Parameters that's required for the service to
> work. This seems bizarre to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
> I think the question to keep in mind here is "Who is advertising what
to
> whom?"  In WSN, which draws heavily on WSRF and so should be a good
> example of this pattern, we define a set of operations on
subscriptions
> (called "SubscriptionManagers" in WSN), for example Pause, Resume,
> Destroy, GetProperties, etc.  We define a WSDL for what the elements
in
> the body look like, but we specifically don't say anything in WSDL
about
> what reference parameters (or other headers) need to be present in
order
> to send a successful Pause, Resume etc. request.
> 
> Instead, that information is determined by the service that mints the
EPR,
> 
> in this case the subscription factory (called the
"NotificationProducer"
> in WSN).  More concretely, the response to the Subscribe request
message
> contains an EPR, which the subscribing party may use to further
manipulate
> 
> the subscription.
> 
> The [reference parameters] are meant to be opaque.  In general, you
don't
> mint an EPR in order to access a service.  Someone else hands you an
EPR
> that you can use to access a service.  You need to know what sort of
> messages you can send to that EPR, but you don't need to know
precisely
> what the EPR is going to look like before you get it.
> 
> In the WSN case, the factory may choose to include all identifying
> information in the [address] IRI of the EPR it hands out, or it may
> include some sort of SubscriptionId parameter, or anything else it
deems
> necessary.  The behavior of the subscribing party is exactly the same
in
> all cases.  It chooses what operation it wants to perform, and (if it
has
> multiple subscriptions open) which EPR to use to send the request, but
it
> does not choose what headers to include (if any) to further identify
the
> subscription.  It gets those from the EPR.
> 
> By contrast, if the Pause, Resume etc. operations were defined with
> reference to a SubscriptionId to be passed as a parameter in the body
of a
> 
> request message, then the WSDL would have to advertise that parameter
just
> 
> like anything else.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> 
> noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com wrote:
> The TAG is trying to learn more about Web Services Addressing and its
> likely uses.  To further our investigations, TAG member Henry Thompson
set
> 
> 
> out to create a representative example of Endpoint Reference use,
based
> primarily on what he could learn from publicly available sources.
Note
> that Henry claims no deep expertise in WSA, and indeed is trying to
learn
> by doing.  Henry's first pass at an example is at [1] (advertised in
email
> 
> 
> at [2]).  In part because it contained both samples and a toolkit,
Henry
> chose to use the Apache WSRF toolkit [3] as the basis for his work.
> 
> The TAG would very much appreciate guidance as to whether this is an
> appropriate first example from which to learn, and if not, where we
might
> look to find something more representative.  Among the specific
questions
> and concerns that have arisen are:
> 
> * If we want to understand typical uses of EPRs, are we doing the
right
> thing to start with WSRF-based examples or are there others we should
> consider first?
> 
> * Given that the example is WSRF-based, there is some confusion as to
> where the EPR would have come from, and the degree to which the EPR
would
> in practice be opaque to the client.  In other discussions it has been
> suggested that EPRs are typically returned from a service provider and
> are, except insofar as the SOAP binding requires them to be
re-expressed
> as headers for transmission, opaque to the client.
> 
> * Is it typical to have an operation such as sq:TradePriceRequest, as
in
> Henry's example, or would it be more common to have a more generic
> GET-like operation such as GetResourceProperty [4]?
> 
> * The likely use of WSDL with EPRs is still somewhat unclear to us.
> Henry's example does provide some WSDL, but it's not entirely clear
how
> its use relates to Web Services addressing.
> 
> The TAG is holding a F2F meeting on Monday and Tuesday Dec. 5 and 6.
For
> the moment, it will be more useful to have early informal input than
to
> have a later formal response from the Web Services Addressing
Workgroup.
> Any guidance that you can provide us would be much appreciated.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Noah Mendelsohn
> - for the W3C Technical Architecture Group
> 
> [1]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Nov/att-
> 0008/eprExample.html
> 
> 
> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Nov/0008.html
> [3] http://ws.apache.org/wsrf/
> [4]
>
http://docs.oasis-open.org/wsrf/2004/11/wsrf-WS-ResourceProperties-1.2-
> draft-05.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn
> IBM Corporation
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> 1-617-693-4036
> --------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
Received on Monday, 19 December 2005 22:05:43 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Tuesday, 2 June 2009 18:35:10 GMT