W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > whatwg@whatwg.org > June 2006

[whatwg] Mathematics in HTML5

From: <juanrgonzaleza@canonicalscience.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 07:22:12 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <3254.217.124.88.162.1150813332.squirrel@webmail.canonicalscience.com>
Henri Sivonen wrote:
>
> On Jun 20, 2006, at 10:42, White Lynx wrote:
>
>> Henri Sivonen wrote:
>>
>>> There are only stretchy brackets.
>>> No stretchy parentheses or braces in sight.
>>
>> Did you check fences part at http://www.geocities.com/chavchan/css/
>> annotated.css
>
> I didn't. I checked the sample documents, and I didn't see any
> stretchy parentheses or braces.
>
>>> Also, the stretchy square root hack is just ugly.
>>
>> May I ask how this issue is related to MARKUP proposal?
>
> I wasn't commenting on markup. I was commenting on the claim that you
> had solved the problem of math rendering using CSS. You have not.
>
>>> Fractions are only used in display math, etc.
>>
>> No. They can be used inline and can be nested anywhere. Check DTD.
>
> I was referring to what *is done* in the samples.
>
>>> This is no coincidence, because CSS doesn't do stretchy math
>>> characters. Moreover, general-purpose text rendering subsystems and
>>> fonts usually don't do stretchy characters which is why math
>>> renderers typically special-case these with font-specific knowledge.
>>
>> Once again, how his issue is related to MARKUP proposal?
>
> The markup has to be rendered. On the Web, this means specifying the
> rendering via CSS or making the rendering engine do special-case   stuff
> when CSS is not sufficient.
>
> Clearly, CSS today is insufficient for rendering math. (It doesn't do
> stretchy characters, for example.) It was already explained why it is
> a bad idea to expect CSS to change to accommodate your markup:
> http://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-June/
> 006551.html
> http://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-June/
> 006588.html

Do you would review your posts twice before submit. You would also split
CSS rendering of HTML5-Math proposal *from* specific CSS approaches to
render math people has done.

Try to this *simple* but cool approach to render math via CSS

[http://goessner.net/articles/wiky/WikyBox.html]

The approach can be improved in many ways, for example, the
vertical-align:middle do not work for num and den of different sizes
(solved in most recent George CSS stylesheet).

Further data and comments on the rest of your message already available on
the archives of the list.

> That leaves special-casing. The special-casing for MathML is already
> implemented in Gecko and Trident+MathPlayer. The special-casing for
> your markup isn't.

Further data and comments already available on the list. Examples on why
MathML does not work and render math incorrectly (but CSS not) will be
posted in canonical science today in brief. I also will update a game. I
will submit pair samples of same mathematics: one of them using MathML and
other using CSS rendering, asking to people to find what is ;-)

It will be amazing to verify if in the real world MathML quality rendering
is so infinitely superior to a pure CSS 2.1 approach (i.e. *can be
improved* via CSS math extension) as has beeen claimed here. I will take
examples from real sites using MathML today.

There is not need for repeating more has been said except maybe than
Goessner is working with Firefox 1.5, Internet Explorer 6, and Opera 8.5.
That is more that MathML has achieved after of 3 specs and many propaganda
in media.

Juan R.

Center for CANONICAL |SCIENCE)
Received on Tuesday, 20 June 2006 07:22:12 UTC

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