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[minutes] Feb 7 F2F

From: Dominique Hazael-Massieux <dom@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 17:27:32 +0100
Message-ID: <1360340852.26485.34.camel@cumulustier>
To: public-webrtc@w3.org
Hi,

The minutes of the WebRTC F2F meeting on February 7 are available at:
http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-webrtc-minutes.html and copied as text
below.

Note that the minutes of the Media Capture Task Force were sent
separately:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2013Feb/0034.html

Dom

=======
   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

         Web Real-Time Communications Working Group F2F Meeting

07 Feb 2013

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-webrtc-irc

Attendees

   Present
   Regrets
   Chair
          hta, stefanh

   Scribe
          timeless

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Conclusions Media Cap
         2. [5]MediaStream Cropping
         3. [6]Error handling
         4. [7]Data Channel API
         5. [8]Stats
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 07 February 2013

   <dom> stefanh: propose to adapt agenda in light of lack of
   progress on SDP interface yesterday

   <dom> ... instead of SDP agenda item, we'll look at video
   scaling and cropping in Media Capture Task Force

   <scribe> scribe: timeless

Conclusions Media Cap

   [ Conclusions Media Cap discussions Boston ]

   [ hta reads slide ]

   hta: any comments/complaints?

   [ None ]

   cullen: thanks guys for doing this

MediaStream Cropping

   [ MediaStream Cropping ]

   justin: this is a quick set of slides i put together
   ... for how a camera could stream could be provided in an
   aspect ratio not equal to native

   [ Problem statement ]

   <dom> [10]Justin's slides on aspect ratio

     [10] http://www.w3.org/wiki/images/7/76/Aspect_Ratio.pdf

   justin: most sensors and cameras are moving to 16:9 capture
   ... not all cameras are new
   ... quite a few are 4:3
   ... it's hard for a full screen gui, especially full screen gui
   @ 16:9
   ... <video/> will always pad to fit
   ... as opposed to crop to fit
   ... even if <video/> would crop to fit
   ... you wouldn't want to encode those bits that'd be cropped at
   the other end
   ... if you're doing local preview, you'd probably want to see
   the other side
   ... so people can see if they're out of from

   [ Solution: crop 4:3 to 16:9 ]

   justin: discard top/bottom (or left/right if needed)
   ... Flash's camera api would do this if you asked for an
   unsupported res
   ... instangram likes squares, so you could get this
   ... i'm only concerned w/ crop - letterboxing/pillarboxing are
   available from <video/>

   [ General Approach ]

   justin: opt in, new mandatory constraint
   ... you want this specific height, width
   ... width.max,min=640
   ... height.max,min=360
   ... allowCrop=true
   ... if camera supports resolution that falls within mandatory
   constraints, use that res
   ... if camera supports res that exceeds mandatory constraints,
   allowCrop=true to crop satisfy mandatory constraints

   dom: if this is mandatory
   ... how does it fit?
   ... it doesn't seem like a `selection` critera

   justin: it's more for having chosen a camera
   ... selecting settings later

   dom: so, it's a constraint that may be more for control than
   selection

   justin: i'm intending it for that, yes

   burn: this is control, not selection
   ... why mandatory { allowCrop }
   ... instead of mandatory/optional { cropIfNeeded }

   justin: for optional things

   <dom> [this seems to point to a growing divergence between
   constraints-for-selection and constraints-for-setting]

   justin: if these bounds are not hard bounds
   ... then it'd be a closest match

   burn: if it didn't get it, it didn't get it
   ... the point of optional constraints is notifying them if they
   can't be satisfied
   ... i'm proposing `cropIfNeeded`
   ... if you put it in mandatory, then it would crop if it needs
   to and can

   justin: do you have an example?
   ... i have a camera that can or can't crop in hardware

   burn: you might have other optional constraints relating to
   aspectRatio
   ... if you get those, you might want cropping,
   ... if not, you might not care

   JonLennox: comment, that might make this harder
   ... i'm often in a situation of VGA camera
   ... cropping `middle 2/3` makes it easier
   ... but on a mobile phone in landscape, cropping like that
   doesn't do what i want

   justin: i have another proposal
   ... PeterThatcher mentioned that problem on the ride over

   fluffy: trying to simplify things
   ... i assumed crop was always true
   ... if they asked for 16:9 and the input is 9:16, they get a
   postage stamp
   ... person rotates phone, problem goes away
   ... caution that adding complexity won't help people
   ... what happens if it's mandatory and it comes back `can't`

   hta: i kind of like the general approach
   ... but i dislike the examples
   ... i live in the world of resizable windows and interchangable
   cameras
   ... i want to write a UI once
   ... that will work when the user resizes the window
   ... and works w/ Barbie Doll camera
   ... and an HD camera
   ... i want 1 of 2 things
   ... either everything in picture field
   ... or i want picture to fill my field
   ... in neither situation should we stretch the picture
   ... remove the talk about min/max, and use the res.
   ... if you need to crop, crop

   justin: are you +1'ing fluffy ?
   ... if you ask for a res, and

   hta: when media is flowing
   ... browser knows where it's going
   ... and it knows where it's coming from
   ... it will have to do a fit operation
   ... this is an instruction to browser to crop instead of
   letterbox
   ... it doesn't instruct browser to aim for res

   timeless: he's complaining about the example

   justin: he's saying constraint pillarbox/crop

   hta: my real window size is 250:172
   ... it should fit to that
   ... the best way to achieve that
   ... i think the browser should do what it needs to do

   stefanh: with <video/> it can adjust to video aspectRatio
   ... and there are examples of using <canvas/> to crop
   ... canvas uses lots of power
   ... and you lose advantage of sending non-displayed bits

   justin: i was going to add <canvas/> in an earlier slide
   ... if we had a Media Stream Processing API

   [ laughter ]

   justin: doing things in the GPU
   ... could be very efficient

   derf: i want to apply this to any video stream
   ... not just cameras
   ... according to settings, a <video/> can't have this applied

   [ Examples ]

   justin: this isn't the alternate proposal
   ... just how to use this constraint
   ... 720p sensor, want 4:3

   width.max,min=960

   height.max,min=720

   allowCrop=true

   burn: on this topic of do we let browser do its wisest thing
   ... or let JS dev give a preference
   ... i don't think it makes it more complex to allow both cases
   ... it's quite productive to let the user choice
   ... crop, pad, best-guess

   justin: that's what i heard fluffy say

   burn: if there's a mismatch between <track> request and
   destination
   ... then you can express a preference as an app writer
   ... for cropping, or padding, or not caring

   justin: how do you recognize this mismatch when the destination
   is PeerConnection

   timeless: shouldn't PeerConnection be able to express a
   resolution?

   burn: there's no way to express PeerConnection res as you do
   for <video/>
   ... unless we want to add that

   [ Yes ]

   burn: that would address a lot of this
   ... because then it becomes parallel to <video/>

   fluffy: what i heard by hta was what i said
   ... a resize by Pretty, Ugly, ...
   ... for something that crosses the PeerConnection
   ... if we want that to propagate back to the origin
   ... the resize will have to go back across the PeerConnection
   ... involving a renegotiation
   ... complicated, but very nice
   ... if no one sets constraints
   ... but we need a way to say "i'm going to send 640x480"
   ... by creating a track with that
   ... and PeerConnection says "oh, that's what i'm sending"
   ... and then it doesn't negotiate

   justin: someone changes window size
   ... and that pushes it all the way back
   ... if someone changes window size and camera has to stop and
   restart,
   ... that yields wacky behavior

   fluffy: if camera is SIF camera
   ... and someone selects QCIF
   ... allow crop also
   ... have constraints?

   justin: proposing

   <dom> s/QSIF/QCIF

   justin: PeerConnection encoder can do cropping internally

   <dom> [11]CIF on wikipedia

     [11] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Intermediate_Format

   justin: the point is to give something to the encoder to do
   efficient scales
   ... for power of two scales
   ... for efficient matches of what output can display

   martin__: the more i think of this
   ... the more i think i have too many ways to do the same thing
   ... this seems to belong in the renderer
   ... we have <video/> it may pillarbox/letterbox/crop
   ... if we treat PeerConnection as renderer
   ... then i don't think we need constraints

   justin: assume a single camera
   ... no choosing
   ... for WYSIWYG
   ... do we have 2 mechanisms or 1 ?
   ... same way to ask camera for get X res, same way for X' res

   martin__: two ways
   ... @ <video/>
   ... and a way @ Track()
   ... which may or may not
   ... if each sink is the only place to set these properties
   ... the only constraint would be for selection
   ... i'm coming to the conclusion that that's pointless
   ... since in most cases it's orientation of camera that matters
   most

   hta: device selection is different topic

   ekr: whatever camera aspects
   ... if i plug in arbitrary res
   ... to <video>
   ... we expect something as reasonable as possible

   [ it will rescale in letterbox or pillarbox ]

   martin__: there's no way to control it

   justin: is it specified?

   stefanh: i think it's specified
   ... you can ask it to auto grow

   justin: you can never crop

   ekr: anything really sophisticated
   ... like Media Stream Processing API
   ... want something analog to <video/>
   ... i want to force fit this camera to this stream
   ... this is a stop-gap?

   justin: fixing a common problem w/ an efficient+cheap solution

   ekr: i could live w/ either @source or @sink
   ... i think i exploded at pushing across Connection

   stefanh: to martin__

   <dom> [12]HTML5 spec says: "In the absence of style rules to
   the contrary, video content should be rendered inside the
   element's playback area such that the video content is shown
   centered in the playback area at the largest possible size that
   fits completely within it, with the video content's aspect
   ratio being preserved. Thus, if the aspect ratio of the
   playback area does not match

     [12]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content-0.html#dom-video-videowidth

   <dom> the aspect ratio of the video, the video will be shown
   letterboxed or pillarboxed. Areas of the element's playback
   area that do not contain the video represent nothing."

   stefanh: to add Crop <media> element?

   martin__: yeah

   burn: i think simplest logical model for all of this
   ... is your Track is used to identify what's natively produced
   ... and Sink is what you expect to get out
   ... and influences where you munge
   ... so PeerConnection should have things like <video>
   ... i think constraints on Track still make sense
   ... so you can ask for High Res from Camera (which offers High
   Res and Low Res)
   ... so an app writer can say "these matter to me"
   ... so sink does processing
   ... and make it clear that's where it is

   justin: so that's a proposal to flag it
   ... at ...

   burn: allow back propagation or not is up to us
   ... we could allow settings on PeerConnection to allow settings
   to go across
   ... PeerConnection gets to decide how its properties as a sink
   are set

   justin: choosing how a device is opened up
   ... i argue this is analogous
   ... saying "give me X", or saying "give me X'"
   ... we could talk about feedback mechanism
   ... saying `camera can produce X res's`
   ... the reason allowCrop=true is there
   ... is for if you're in Portrait mode
   ... and you don't want to do cropping
   ... maybe apps don't ever do that
   ... give me these pixels no matter what
   ... give apps some flexibility

   burn: i'm not recommending taking away control from app writer
   ... question is where to do it
   ... on Sink or on Track

   PeterThatcher: is it safe to say we want to avoid reopening
   camera?
   ... does app tell browser this?

   justin: most flexible is to open @high res
   ... and crop/scale
   ... cameras have non-0 reset time
   ... and there's noticable artifact as they stop/restart camera

   PeterThatcher: would support controlling the crop at camera
   open time to avoid other constraints changing and causing
   re-open

   <dom> ScribeNick: dom

   justin: changing camera after feedback from sink

   martin__: the simple response to that is: don't do that
   ... if you're operating in the wrong mode for the display
   you're opearting in, you'll have to deal with it at some point
   ... This proposal is adding processing in the pipeline, which
   is what I wanted to avoid
   ... leaving constraints for elements that matter for the
   hardware
   ... anything related to processing should be left up to a
   processing api
   ... that api would provide a way to crop the video among other
   things

   justin: that would be great, but that expands the scope of
   needed work

   martin__: we would need to gather use cases, but that would be
   much cleaner than trying to push processing through constraints

   adambe: everytime we talk about constraints, it sounds like
   this could be for sources, tracks, or sinks
   ... that is very confusing
   ... it would be easier if only of these should be the focus of
   constraints

   burn: I have a similar comment; I think it should apply to two,
   not three

   adambe: we have the recorder as a sink, for peerconnection,
   stefanh proposed a transport handler to support setting
   priority etc
   ... for the MediaElement, you can control the width and height,
   but I don't know how you would control framerate, etc
   ... It seems more natural to let the sink in control

   Dan_Druta: I heard two aspects of applying constraints for:
   efficiency, and user experience
   ... we should be very clear about it when we talk about pros
   and cons

   juberti: re the sink driving, that's an important model, but I
   don't think we should force everyone under that model

   gmandyam: in the media capture call in December, we discussed
   @@@
   ... you can set options for recording independently of the
   source
   ... it's not a real-time operation either, so with different
   considerations than peerconnection

   juberti: setting stuff at the source level doesn't invalidate
   options at the recording level

   burn: the current state of the settings proposal that we talked
   about, and the world we live in the current spec
   ... is that of source, tracks, and sinks, you can only set
   constraints on tracks and sinks
   ... peerconnection doesn't have the same kinf of settings
   capabilities
   ... there is a need to control what the source provides
   natively
   ... (if the device cheats e.g. with Apple, there is nothing we
   can do about it)
   ... we only two, but we have three places
   ... we could set constraints on sources, tracks, sinks
   ... the problem with constraints on peerconnection, you can
   have multiple tracks going in a peerconnection
   ... each of these tracks could have their own configuration
   ... this is why we've been talking about control on tracks
   ... the problem is to determine whether munging is done at the
   track abstraction level (and the source is where you set what
   you want), or at the sink abstraction level (and the track is
   where you set what you want)

   fluffy: +1 to burn
   ... we're lacking a mental model of all this
   ... there are sources, sinks, and tracks connect them together
   ... the problem with sinks is that we don't have much control
   about it

   <gmandyam> @@@ = At December MediaCap TF call, the participants
   agreed that width-height combo settings are required for the
   recording API. I proposed a possible setting to the mailing
   list.

   fluffy: as a result, tracks are preferred location for
   exercising control
   ... if you put constraint on tracks, that affect what's
   produced by that track
   ... for the sources, the general model is that they look at all
   the tracks they deliver, and they select the best setting that
   allow them to satisfy the tracks they're producing
   ... As a result, the mental model should be that Tracks are
   where we want to set constraints preferably

   juberti: that makes sense to me

   Josh_Soref: regarding the risk of latency attached to reopening
   a camera
   ... could this be something we can prevent using a constraint?
   ... (preventing from reopening a camera to adjust to a new
   setting)
   ... On the PeerConnection bit, I've always assumed @@@

   stefanh: I think we need more control over transmission media
   ... we could apply that to tracks, or provide an api in
   peerconnection per-track

   juberti: I would prefer to apply it via peerconnection

   stefanh: I agree

   hta: the video element has the CSS3 property to define the
   cropping/fitting model

   martin__: I don't mind fluffy's suggestions, except that it
   means you now have two ways to control this for the video
   element
   ... I'm kind of tempted that we don't have this setting API for
   that
   ... I'll have to talk with Travis about that

   juberti: I have an alternate proposal

   <hta> (the css3 property is called object-fit - it took me a
   while to find it)

   juberti: where you define the maximal crop aspect ration

   -> [13]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#object-fit
   object-fit in CSS Image Values and Replaced Content Module
   Level 3

     [13] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#object-fit

   Josh_Soref: in the recorder case, there isn't necessary a
   post-processing server somewhere else
   ... I can be doing local recording

   juberti: the cropAspectRatio is the process aspect ratio

   @@@: we would make it clear that process stuff would only be
   used for peerconnection

   cullen: do you have a slide on scaling?

   juberti: no

   cullen: I would love that we say we never scale up

   martin__: disagree, it has to happen in some cases
   ... I think we're talking about processing, and where that
   processing is applied

   stefanh: to avoid upscaling, we would have to change the
   mediaelement, since it scales up

   cullen: I was referring to not allowing to scale up at the
   track level, but I think the length of the line shows I'm
   losing on that one

   ekr: what does it mean to scale up a track?

   cullen: say you've acquired a sd camera
   ... and then you apply a constraint to the track to get a
   bigger resolution

   ekr: so I have a SD source that gets a SD track, plugging it
   into an HD video tag — that will be ugly
   ... if you were to apply to same setting to a peerconnection,
   the same thing would happen
   ... what you're saying that we should not allow to augment the
   resolution of a native track

   burn: I think you should have control
   ... but fluffy, you're badly schizophrenic
   ... if the constraint you set on the track is the output of the
   track
   ... and it's ok for munging to happen
   ... then scaling up has to be allowed to happen
   ... what we would want is to have constraints to limit the way
   the processing can be done
   ... and I think that's what justin is describing

   juberti: the goal is to provide a simpler way to do processing
   without providing a full-blown graph processing api
   ... I worry about an authoritarian model where @@@
   ... I don't think it makes sense to send the quadruple amount
   of bits with no increased quality

   tim: afaict, no browser has implemented object-fit property
   except opera in the past two years

   -> [14]http://caniuse.com/object-fit object-fit in caniuse

     [14] http://caniuse.com/object-fit

   jan: we're a bit off-track with upscaling
   ... we've talked about source constraints and track constraints
   ... if we had peerconnection.maxWidth,
   peerConnection.maxHeight, this would cutshort this whole debate

   juberti: I think the peerconnection should have specific
   control on what each track aspect is
   ... I think we're pretty far afield to specific problem I'm
   trying to solve here

   martin__: if you're concerned about sending more bits over a
   PeerConnection than is necessary,
   ... having these settings on PeerConnection allows the PC to
   say "you've set this higher than what the source provides"

   Jan: I would modify my earlier proposal to have PeerConnection
   say the aspect ration of what the client will care about (e.g.
   4x3)
   ... this is only for peerconnection

   juberti: not really, since object-fit is not implemented
   ... some cameras can do cropping at the hardware level, but not
   all of them
   ... this would let us solve the problem to these various cases
   ... it's not the general mediaprocessing api, but it has a
   better RoI

   hta: I think there is some level agreement that cropping needs
   to be able happen
   ... and the application should be able to have some control
   over it
   ... there is a fair bit of debate on what the model is on what
   constraints apply to, and how they show up at the destination
   of the track
   ... vs modification at the source of the track
   ... We kind of passed that boundary when we agreed to be able
   to produce multiple resolutions from a single source
   ... I would like to ask martin to write up his concerns on
   setting constraints on track
   ... and propose an alternate approach

   <hta> ACTION: Martin to write up his concerns with using
   constraints on track to manipulate stuff that might apply to
   sources and might apply to sinks [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-webrtc-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Write up his concerns with using
   constraints on track to manipulate stuff that might apply to
   sources and might apply to sinks [on Martin Thomson - due
   2013-02-14].

   hta: I would like justin to take an action item to describe
   this constraint in a way that can be included in the document

   <scribe> ACTION: Justin to describe the constraint for aspect
   ratio for potential inclusion in the document [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-webrtc-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-84 - Describe the constraint for
   aspect ratio for potential inclusion in the document [on Justin
   Uberti - due 2013-02-14].

Error handling

   <timeless> scribe: timeless

   hta: there are cases where we need to provide more information
   than just the error name
   ... e.g. when there is an sdp error
   ... we want the line of where the SDP arose

   <inserted> ScribeNick: timeless

   hta: could people help me refresh my memory?

   burn: we were trying to finalize the principles
   ... but we decided we needed to look at specific
   ... and Adam Roach said we needed to hear from implementers
   ... as they implement
   ... instead of "ooh, maybe it will do this, maybe it will do
   that"

   ekr: what errors we're seeing
   ... what you need to return
   ... how often, and when
   ... justin and i are debating Error1, or Error2 and Error3
   ... i mostly see malformed SDP
   ... a browser screwed it up, or someone mangled it
   ... a parser of why i didn't like it and what it was
   ... Adam Roach pointed out the same need for ICE
   ... when i look at existing ICE information
   ... that would be a long way toward knowing what's going on
   ... a way to detail every check
   ... would be useful
   ... very confusing errors
   ... the only thing in the docs at all is detailed ICE info

   justin: for Chrome 25, we'll have which line of SDP it choked
   on
   ... SDP people complain about Dom11 for not having crypto lines
   ... we should see if that's useful
   ... we also created chrome:ice-debugging (not for JS)
   ... to allow people to debug apps w/o exposing js apis to apps
   ... we'll have more debugging tools
   ... before we invent too many more things

   ekr: most of these errors are programming errors
   ... i think it's a great idea to have inspectors that are only
   accessible to programmer

   <dom> [The WebSockets API is very careful in not exposing too
   many details about errors:
   [17]http://www.w3.org/TR/websockets/#feedback-from-the-protocol
   ; not sure if there are similar risks in our case]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/TR/websockets/#feedback-from-the-protocol

   ekr: you test when you write code
   ... you don't know why
   ... once you get it working, it works
   ... ICE check failed on component 1 to the user
   ... is unlikely to help the user

   fluffy: we're putting your email address in our errors
   ... i don't think we've reviewed the doc for errors that can
   come up
   ... we're seeing implementations
   ... a port of Firefox that also does 264
   ... not being able to report up mismatches
   ... problems that you don't see since you only do one codec

   derf: how we report errors is good
   ... we need to define what happens when there's an error
   ... you might parse SDP, it might be valid, but not apply to
   session state
   ... mismatched m=lines between offer and answer
   ... i don't care about behavior, but it needs to be consistent
   ... we could Tear down the entire call
   ... we could not access the entire SDP
   ... or browser crashes
   ... but it shouldn't be inconsistent between browsers

   dom: WebSockets API is careful
   ... about avoiding exposing details

   ekr: SDP exposes the entire Network Topology

   <dom> [so should we drop SDP? >:]

   ekr: hta's proposal of statistics
   ... could be useful
   ... or if i'm showing my video instead of remote
   ... if there's no RTP coming in
   ... re derf's proposal
   ... there's going to be a whole class of things
   ... passing bogus SDP
   ... sometimes that's a parse error
   ... sometimes that's an application error
   ... standards should encourage right behavior
   ... but if you get halfway through applying an SDP
   ... i can't roll-back
   ... it might be better for me to close

   juberti: someone had a action to describe how rollback should
   happen
   ... two sets of errors
   ... @SDP layer
   ... either not eat
   ... or tear down
   ... or @SRTP
   ... and we could blow up in Security layer
   ... we can make best practices

   hta: implementer feedback
   ... some parse errors
   ... are easy, some are harder to pin down
   ... the missing crypto line is hard
   ... which line is the one to report it for?
   ... it would be nice to have some descriptive text
   ... not for applications
   ... but useful for debuggers

   <dom> [oh boy, are we now describing an SDP parser API?]

   hta: or maybe useful advice

   ekr: missing crypto line v. missing fingerprint
   ... having looked at jingle
   ... it wouldn't be at parse time
   ... it'd be later
   ... you need a textual report
   ... "i'm sad for reason: ..."
   ... parsers print to logging but don't propagate

   juberti: that landed last night
   ... in Canary

   stefanh: no big need for adding errors
   ... but more on what happens when you encounter an error

   hta: this is part of procedure description for
   setLocalDescription/...
   ... we left off precise language
   ... on the idea of getting the general principles before we
   write precise language
   ... i think it's the time to write precise language

   [ Coffee Break for 15 minutes ]

Data Channel API

   jesup: W3 flavor of data channel discussion
   ... i hope less controversial than the IETF flavor
   ... maybe we'll make a decision

   [ DataChannel JS API ]

   jesup: feedback from Mozilla Devs working on those apis
   ... has been generally positive
   ... it's worked the way they've expected
   ... primary unresolved area
   ... is how to create data channel and how it interacts w/
   createOffer/createAnswer

   [ Changes to API ]

   jesup: IETF 85 ... protocol to add data channels to agree on
   interop

   martin__: the web socket idea of a sub protocol?

   jesup: i guess so
   ... an IANA registered string
   ... if you do this, you agree you're exchanging in some form
   ... since we're mirroring WebSocket
   ... this is that thing from WebSocket

   adambe: latest version of WebSocket lets you say you accept
   multiple protocols?

   jesup: but you can only use one once it's in flight

   <dom> [18]WebSocket Subprotocols registry

     [18] http://www.iana.org/assignments/websocket/websocket.xml

   jesup: our way to create data channel is different from
   WebSocket

   martin__: no need to negotiate
   ... it's with itself

   jesup: you would need a way to signal back agreement,
   complexity for no reason

   [ Proposal ]

   jesup: like yesterday, but w/o SDP
   ... all the JS layer
   ... no DataChannel unless you call pc.createDataChannel()
   ... you can call it any number of times before
   createOffer/createAnswer
   ... if called after initial createOffer, it triggers a
   negotiationneeded

   hta: createOffer or setLocalDescription?

   jesup: before SDP or after SDP is the distinction
   ... relative ICE things

   hta: what if they createOffer throw it away and call
   createOffer again?

   jesup: maybe `initial` is wrong

   hta: one solution is first call triggers negotiationneeded

   jesup: createStream throw away stream, stream is still there
   ... same for data channels

   martin__: seems like there's some need for ...

   derf: we had an AI for when negotiationneeded fires

   martin__: and when other things fire after

   [ Problems ]

   jesup: unless you sniff SDP, you won't know if there was a data
   channel

   <martin__> the question is a) when onnegotiationneeded fires
   and b) when it clears such that it could fire again

   jesup: we can't add an m=line in an answer
   ... if you want it, you'd need a second round of offer-answer

   [ Example ]

   <derf> martin__, I suspect the answer to b) is that it can
   always fire again.

   [ Decisions! (Please!) ]

   jesup: use createDataChannel to trigger m=application line
   ... if needed, createDataChannel will call negotiationneeded

   martin__: need to be >0 open channels to include m=application
   ... because you could create a data channel, close it, and then
   createOffer

   hta: i'm fine w/ this
   ... is that what you want?

   jesup: basically

   XXX

   paul: namespace for sub protocols?
   ... subordinate to webrtc channel namespace?
   ... should be same namespace as websocket subprotocols?
   ... i don't know that

   <martin__> ACTION jesup to if we replace onnegotiationneeded
   conditions to the same as those we have for addStream()

   <trackbot> Error finding 'jesup'. You can review and register
   nicknames at
   <[19]http://www.w3.org/2011/04/webrtc/track/users>.

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2011/04/webrtc/track/users%3E.

   jesup: i think it's an IANA register

   paul: just want a procedure

   <martin__> ACTION Randell to make onnegotiationneeded
   conditions the same as those we have for addStream()

   <trackbot> Error finding 'Randell'. You can review and register
   nicknames at
   <[20]http://www.w3.org/2011/04/webrtc/track/users>.

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2011/04/webrtc/track/users%3E.

   paul: to define these

   TedHardie: it's a first come first server registry
   ... set up by WebSocket folks

   paul: single level name

   hta: you can define protocols for data channel
   ... that don't work well w/ web sockets
   ... that might be an argument for different registry

   jesup: not an argument for different registry, just don't use
   w/ websocket

   TedHardie: for this room, push to IETF side

   jesup: i agree
   ... what `protocol` means shall be defined by IETF

   <martin__> OK, randell isn't a registered user

   Dan_Druta: protocol isn't limited to registry, right?

   jesup: if it wishes to ignore the registry, nothing can force
   it
   ... I yield the remainder of my time

   stefanh: we made a decision to go w/ this w/ hta's amendment

   <dom> ACTION: stefanh to get Randell to make
   onnegotiationneeded conditions the same as those we have for
   addStream( [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-webrtc-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-85 - Get Randell to make
   onnegotiationneeded conditions the same as those we have for
   addStream( [on Stefan Håkansson - due 2013-02-14].

Stats

   [ Stats ]

   [ hta defines Microphones `chair at desk`, `speaker at
   wireless`, `individual at center mic` ]

   <scribe> [ New API ]

   hta: changing datatype of what comes back on stats report
   ... to be an object that's able to tell you the identifiers
   ... and able to get those objects
   ... each object has type and id
   ... and set of names, and a getter to get value for name

   juberti: like a Dictionary?

   <scribe> [ New Objects ]

   hta: exactly
   ... Dictionaries are a name value mapping
   ... I decided this is a fine way of putting stuff into
   documentation
   ... that can be checked with a WebIDL parser
   ... sequence returned order is somewhat curious
   ... depends on alphabetical names
   ... and based on hierarchy
   ... things defined in derived dictionary are added to the
   sequence (sorted) after the original dictionary's list
   ... this is a pain in the posterior
   ... i looked into the state of a Dictionary
   ... and how to return one from a function
   ... the answer i got is that `it's doable, w/ 3 experts in DOM
   state manipulation`
   ... so i propose no dictionaries
   ... [as from the previous slide ]

   [ Principles of object definition ]

   hta: use Dictionary as documentation method
   ... pointers are done via ID
   ... Keep it simple (and well defined)

   martin__: i'm unsympathetic to the hard to implement

   hta: did you implement something that fully implements
   dictionary

   martin__: one thing i didn't deal w/ was extra params
   ... the idea that you'd have trouble passing objects to js as
   hard to do...
   ... we've discussed this at length
   ... the things we're getting are key-value-pairs w/ primitives
   and maybe arrays
   ... but you're forcing them to use unfamiliar constructs

   adambe: JS has a way to deal w/ KeyValue pairs
   ... couldn't we say we're returning a JS object w/ these values
   ... and not promise order
   ... that gives us enumeration and lookup from JS

   hta: one vote for Dictionary
   ... and one comment for Object

   fluffy: in favor of making this work

   <dom> [I think you can use [NoInterfaceObject] interface to
   describe regular JavaScript objects]

   fluffy: keen to restrict semantics to that of Dictionary
   ... if function calls get mapped to thing, this would be a
   disaster
   ... nearly every language has something like Dictionary
   ... I want Dictionary semantics, ... ASN.1 - i don't care

   ekr: is there an argument against these being properties
   ... that isn't rooted in implementation details
   ... why isn't names() and getValue() just properties of the
   object
   ... one is that it's Lousy for JS user
   ... and one that it's inconvenient for the C++ WebKit dev
   ... is it just PITA for WebKit?
   ... i'd have expected that a param was property index (.keys)
   ... and reference by .<> or [<>]

   fluffy: you expect Dictionary

   ekr: what's the merits of this other than implementation?

   juberti: if it was []/. instead of getValue()

   dom: i understand Dictionary is a pain
   ... but why not Interface
   ... this is similar to GeoLoc in a way
   ... they use [NoInterfaceObject]
   ... we shouldn't define our own way of declaring our own local
   data
   ... WebIDL w/ interfaces provides that

   martin__: use partial interfaces

   hta: partial interfaces w/o source

   juberti: why objects
   ... couldn't we make them more like regular dictionaries?

   hta: if `void (RTCStatsReport statsReport)` with a map
   ... Dictionary provides some guarantees and constraints i don't
   want

   martin__: it doesn't need to be a Dictionary
   ... it could be [] or .
   ... you can do this in JS in browsers w/ handlers
   ... i don't see a problem w/ implementation
   ... if you aren't backing directly w/ C++
   ... we need a map

   adambe: `statsReport`
   ... report is a complete thing
   ... and you have subreports
   ... you want two levels
   ... you could guarantee a timestamp, type, id
   ... why are those on a different level?

   martin__: individual stats object could be created at different
   times

   adambe: move timetamp/id into getValue?
   ... i'm disregarding the top object

   [ RTCStatsReport ]

   adambe: i don't see why we need a stats.type v.
   stats.getValue(x).

   hta: how do you specify that in WebIDL

   martin__: i'd rather show example code for exact number of
   packets

   dom: I think in WebIDL, your additional data structure inherits
   from a core interface
   ... Object is a Map

   fluffy: don't drive from WebIDL
   ... figure out from how you want to use it
   ... i think it generally does

   hta: i don't have slides w/ code
   ... if i have dictionary foo { int blah; }
   ... i can't have additional attributes

   martin__: no one sees the dictionary type
   ... so you can have dictionary privatefoo : foo {...}

   hta: they are unobservable?

   fluffy: this applies to any language w/ dictionary inheritance

   ekr: no opinion about dictionaries permitting this behavior
   ... it's important to be able to add additional properties
   ... if that can't be made to work, that's death for dictionary

   jan: i think Dictionary doesn't have a sequence on purpose
   ... as a useful constraint
   ... you can't know if a caller had a meaning in their sequence
   or not
   ... a sequential dictionary would be a less restrictive type

   fluffy: write in the spec that objects will inherit from the
   type defined in the spec

   hta: sold

   adambe: so, StatsReport is a map?
   ... and we need unique key for each object?

   hta: key was unique in that object

   juberti: top thing is map->RTCStatsObject

   hta: the dictionary's become interface *RTP* : RTCStatsObject

   martin__: RTCStatsReport is second level of ugly

   hta: it's just a map

   martin__: a map of id's to things
   ... but why do we need ids?
   ... why are they the key?
   ... why not rtcstatsobject.type ?
   ... given id's aren't stable across calls

   adambe: at time X
   ... you get a report
   ... check stats for some subreport component
   ... at time Y
   ... you get a report
   ... you want to compare reports
   ... you need to know that stats report is comparable

   "Comment 22"

   martin__: indexing by type
   ... i need to go back to usage patterns

   hta: by id gives you one
   ... by type could give you more
   ... an id could be an implementation defined string/random
   number

   martin__: but that can be correlated to other stats object at
   other random times for the same stats object?

   hta: it's the identifier of the underlying object's specific
   stats property

   <dom> [22]Harald stats v2 proposal

     [22]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2012Dec/att-0013/RTCWEBStatsv2.pdf

   adambe: how do we define RTCStatsReport ?

   martin__: I think WebIDL has operator [index]
   ... or getter()

   hta: i can't say definitely w/o `JS the good parts`
   ... i've seen filter()
   ... if primary map is by id, then it's easy to get by type

   adambe: statsreport is only by id
   ... people implement by type themselves

   hta: i think my life is simpler

   juberti: what's the timestamp unit?

   hta: `long` is a mistake

   adambe: i argued for DOMTimeStamp

   hta: I argued for Date

   ekr: i'd be sad if i couldn't express time in units smaller
   than ms
   ... requirement is sub-ms resolution

   <dom> [23]High Resolution Time

     [23] http://www.w3.org/TR/hr-time/

   juberti: FP or us?

   martin__: nothing native provides one

   dom: High Resolution Time does this

   Josh_Soref: i believe it's from Web Perf

   hta: adopt High Res Time as soon as it goes to the list
   ... i implemented this as long and was surprised it didn't
   overflow

   [ No more slides ]

   juberti: on naming
   ... RTCStatsObject is the parent type
   ... derived types are RTPStream
   ... do we want `Stats` in the names?
   ... i could see having an RTPStream object at a future time
   ... i think they should show that they're Stats

   adambe: how do we keep track of remote stats?
   ... are they properties of a local stat
   ... or another property?

   hta: most of the time, properties
   ... i defined RTPStream `other end is`
   ... one comes from RTCP and one's local
   ... linking objects together is a special case

   adambe: my preference was to target the remote object directly

   hta: the weird point is
   ... if you get partial stats
   ... sometimes the other side falls outside your filter

   adambe: but you only filter on one level
   ... remote shouldn't be null or

   [ scribe is getting lost ]

   hta: if you filter, you get n+object graph
   ... you could have stats for other tracks
   ... one case you look up id and it's there
   ... and one case the id isn't there
   ... if there's a point about filtering

   fluffy: i could live with this
   ... i'd prefer something more
   ... trying to treat remote stats slightly differently doesn't
   make sense to me
   ... i'd suggest having 4 sets of statistics
   ({Local,Remote}{Incoming,Outgoing}RTPStreamStats)
   ... and then stuff all 4 in one object

   hta: if you group, you impose a tree structure
   ... i have peerconnection -> streams -> tracks
   ... i have transports -> tracks
   ... not the same mapping

   "relations are good, normal forms are good, trees are bad"

   juberti: on name
   ... type
   ... do we prefer to spell out type
   ... as opposed to instanceof
   ... you have a bunch of RTCStats objects that are more derived
   ... you can look at the parent name property
   ... should we use instanceof?

   Josh_Soref: if you want to duct-type an object, instanceof
   doesn't work

   martin__: i wrote up an example of how to use this
   ... it's clumsy if i'm looking for a particular type
   ... how to figure out which type i'm looking for

   hta: leaf hierarchy
   ... reuse inheritance for more attributes
   ... type field isn't useful anymore
   ... is it incoming, or googlespecial or ...
   ... so we need type documentation

   adambe: some way to tell getstats what you want to poll for?
   ... it'd be easier if you could somehow know what to expect

   stefanh: Lunch

   [ +1 +1 +1 ]

   fluffy: is there uncertainty to the ietf-stuff
   ... for what to do?

   hta: for stats, adambe needs to edit as agreed
   ... adambe and i will have a telco next week

   fluffy: one of you will create a document-ietf mirror of burn

   hta: which registry?

   fluffy: do we create a registry of stats?

   hta: i think we should

   fluffy: expert review?

   TedHardie: there's a W3C side process for creating registries

   adambe: what about additional ones
   ... do we want some mandatory stats?

   hta: i think the spec is unreadable w/o some examples
   ... the document should register those

   [ Lunch ]

   [ Meeting resumes as IETF after Lunch ]

   TedHardie: we'll try to close IETF on-time if not early due to
   SnowPocalypse
   ... i know we officially scheduled 5
   ... i'd suggest we target resuming @ 1:15

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Justin to describe the constraint for aspect
   ratio for potential inclusion in the document [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-webrtc-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Martin to write up his concerns with using
   constraints on track to manipulate stuff that might apply to
   sources and might apply to sinks [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-webrtc-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: stefanh to get Randell to make
   onnegotiationneeded conditions the same as those we have for
   addStream( [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/07-webrtc-minutes.html#action03]

   [End of minutes]
Received on Friday, 8 February 2013 16:27:48 GMT

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