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Re: [AR Standards Discussion] AR & Declarative 3D for the Web Community Groups (was Re: Getting started with the W3C AR Community Group)

From: ya knygar <knygar@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:05:13 +0000
Message-ID: <CAJVWO9bixarWcscWxjEghvmjm-Lc2UuFhASASKt0b=pZWqqa0A@mail.gmail.com>
To: public-ar@w3.org, "discussion@arstandards.org" <discussion@arstandards.org>, "public-poiwg@w3.org" <public-poiwg@w3.org>, "public-device-apis@w3.org" <public-device-apis@w3.org>, WHATWG <whatwg@whatwg.org>, "public-webrtc@w3.org" <public-webrtc@w3.org>, "public-declarative3d@w3.org" <public-declarative3d@w3.org>, vladimir@pobox.com, bjacob@mozilla.com
Hi,
Indeed, the synergy would be there, on some point.

As i'v replied on the "Getting started with the W3C AR Community Group"
topic --
"I hope - our CG's would work closely, together, as long as we have the
parallel intentions
 of promoting the native W3C 3D for the Web Graphics."

Though, maybe your CG would participate in W3C POI WG or other related
to AR Web,
by this - extending the collaboration for W3C AR Web,
i think it depends on the level of "nativity" you would propose to W3C
and communities.

I vote for as decoupled and W3C based AR environment as possible, so
AR Web wouldn't end in
some 3DARWBL(web browsers language) standard..

But start - in a synergy that being created and promoted by WWW users
and developers - actually, for the environment like we have in W3C Web
and as the
next step of W3C Web, not becoming much more than a reaction of W3C/AR
Communities
to the latest W3C standards for the rational and thoughtful evolution
of Web experience.
Evolution where we all, in best traditions, could use as a "best tool
for the job" an XML and/or HTML and/or JavaScript etc.
these that may be used for both 3D, AR and other web experiences.


> Both approaches will likely be
> merged into a joint proposal (we actually have a common German project
> to do so).

May be great, i like the work of both! what's the project?

> We also had
> someone from the Mozilla graphics team highly interested in setting up
> some declarative layer for interactive 3D well above WebGL.

I see it is, particularly, in scope of W3C AR CG,
Mozilla, along with many other major organizations, have a rough times
now, fighting on all the markets,
emerging markets BTW, for all the experiences.. maybe it is due to a
W3C paradigm-shifting Web Standards
that, in order, are representing the Industries, Markets Standards -- demands.
Since we are all on this fringe of AR and Web worlds now, i hope - all
the participants of ours and other related to W3C AR CG's,
would see and develop together - the solution for the best of
next-Web, Web 3 or whatever it would be named.

PS: Chairs, let's transfer the discussion and collaboration about W3C
sort of AR Web into public-ar@w3.org list, smoothly,
from the related WG's and organizations. Let's encourage the process
of forwarding and more important - discussion
on the related topics from these to W3C AR CG mailing lists, so it
would ease our work.


On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Philipp Slusallek <slusallek@dfki.de> wrote:
> [I leave the very wide distribution for this (sort of) announcement, but
> please be careful with responses]
>
> Hi,
>
> Let me point out that our Community Group on "Declarative 3D for the
> Web" has been set up for a while and is now also public (we originally
> targeted an Incubator Group but then waited for the CGs to finally go
> public).
>
> http://www.w3.org/community/declarative3d/
>
> The aim is to extend HTML-5 such that we can include interactive 3D
> graphics directly into the HTML document. We want to integrate as close
> as possible to the existing Web standards, thus making it possible for
> Web developers and users to easily and quickly make use of this
> technology. This includes reusing the DOM for the scene graph, JS for
> scripting, CSS for appearance, DOM events for input, etc.
>
> Our XML3D (xml3d.org) and X3DOM (x3dom.org) by Fraunhofer IGD are
> prototypes of what we have in mind. Both approaches will likely be
> merged into a joint proposal (we actually have a common German project
> to do so).
>
> We had an unofficial kick-off at the Web3D conference in Paris a few
> weeks ago and held a BOF at Siggraph, both with very good attandance.
> Interestingly, Khronos (through Neil Trevett himself) was at both
> meetings and will join and participate in the activities. We also had
> someone from the Mozilla graphics team highly interested in setting up
> some declarative layer for interactive 3D well above WebGL.
>
> In separate projects we and the Fraunhofer team are using this already
> also for AR applications. There is potential for some very obvious
> synergy between the two groups for making AR work in the browser.
>
>        Philipp
>
> Am 20.08.2011 11:02, schrieb Thomas Wrobel:
>> Id just point out, if you are focusing on Web-based AR, that thats an
>> AR browser implementation solution - so you shouldn't also cover the
>> standard for the data itself, as they are two very different things*.
>>
>> (Just as HTML specification specifies how html code should be
>> displayed - it doesn't say what languages and technology's the browser
>> should use to do that. Browsers can thus be coded in many languages,
>> and use all sorts of techniques to display the same results. AR
>> browsers should be the exact same).
>>
>> The discussion of the data standard and code to display that standard
>> are thus two separate discussions, and the goal should be quite
>> explicit on which it aims to do.
>>
>> [/2 cents]
>>
>> -Thomas
>>
>> * with the possibly exception of the 3D format, as web-based tech
>> would limit that to certain types, while non web based browsers could
>> support anything. Thus the non-ones should conform to the web standard
>> 3D anyway. (which I think was more heavily towards being X3D - which
>> as long as it serialises nicely I see no downside to using in any
>> scenario)
>>
>> ~~~~~~
>> Reviews of anything, by anyone;
>> www.rateoholic.co.uk
>> Please try out my new site and give feedback :)
>>
>>
>>
>> On 20 August 2011 04:43, Rob Manson <roBman@mob-labs.com> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> the W3C AR Community Group has been established and is now open for
>>> people to join.  Great work on proposing the group Ya Knygar.
>>>
>>> Now I think it would be good to make some clear plans about what the
>>> goals of the group are and what the scope of our activities are.
>>>
>>> From my perspective this would simply be:
>>>
>>>        "The development of a Web Standards based model
>>>        for Augmented Reality"
>>>
>>> If you have a proposal for an alternate goal/scope then please submit it
>>> and we can run a poll to select what the group runs with.
>>>
>>> Also, I don't think this group is going to work if we just automatically
>>> make everyone who joins a co-chair 8)  At the moment everyone who has
>>> signed up has been made chair.  I'd rather see us first establish the
>>> goals for the group, then run a poll to decide how the group will be
>>> managed and who the chair/s are.  We don't need to be too formal...but a
>>> little structure would be good I think.
>>>
>>> We will also need to clearly define how this groups is different from
>>> the existing AR related groups that have formed already.  I think the
>>> goal I've proposed above does that (e.g. focus solely on Web Based
>>> AR) ...but more discussion is obviously required.
>>>
>>> So, please join the group and get involved in this important discussion.
>>>
>>>        http://www.w3.org/community/ar/
>>>
>>> There's a lot happening and a lot of APIs that will directly impact the
>>> future of a Web Based AR are being defined right now. So now is the
>>> perfect time to get this up and running.
>>>
>>> roBman
>>>
>>> PS: I've cc'd all the related groups I'm involved in to encourage anyone
>>> with a stake in related technologies and APIs to join this group.
>>>
>>> PPS: I've also cc'd in the W3C Community people as I think this
>>> discussion is as much about Community Group process as it is about the
>>> content of our group.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discussion mailing list
>>> Discussion@arstandards.org
>>> http://arstandards.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discussion mailing list
>> Discussion@arstandards.org
>> http://arstandards.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
>
>
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Received on Monday, 22 August 2011 14:05:41 GMT

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