Re: The Payments Architecture within which a Web Payments Architecture occurs

I assume that it's the mission of some In this interest group (not unlike
myself) to completely replace that existing fossil infrastructure.

If there's a subcommittee called "let it burn" then I am happy to chair.



On Thursday, May 14, 2015, Joseph Potvin <jpotvin@opman.ca> wrote:

> FWIW, even the founder of Central Banking Publications, Robert Pringle has
> being saying the current banking and finance system should be abolished and
> replaced.
> http://www.palgraveconnect.com/pc/doifinder/10.1057/9780230392755.0003?focus=true
>
> There is no "at the end of the day". The W3C has no workable choice but to
> take as given what payment systems are deemed to be in law, and how the
> governance of payment systems are regulated in law.
>
> Joseph Potvin
> Operations Manager | Gestionnaire des opérations
> The Opman Company | La compagnie Opman
> jpotvin@opman.ca <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jpotvin@opman.ca');>
> Mobile: 819-593-5983
>
>
> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 1:17 PM, Tony Camero <tonycamerobiz@gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tonycamerobiz@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>> At the end of the day, payments infrastructure needs to behave as natural
>> systems do, not as defacto governmental/financial oppressors dictate.  They
>> need to be an extension of Nature. Centralized control and oversight of
>> trade will ultimately fail, and those institutions will be washed away.
>> Until then, its probably just wise to design standards that enable
>> conformity to regulatory bodies, but don't restrict creativity and
>> freedom...  IMO.
>>
>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Melvin Carvalho <
>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','melvincarvalho@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 14 May 2015 at 18:13, Joseph Potvin <jpotvin@opman.ca
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jpotvin@opman.ca');>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> RE: The docs you reference, in my mind I'd probably think of as
>>>> "industry patterns"
>>>>
>>>> As in (for example): "Model-Driven Design Using Business Patterns"
>>>> http://www.springer.com/us/book/9783540301547
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if that was a question? :)
>>>
>>> From my perspective, the payments work is both almost complete, and just
>>> at the start.  I view the web more like an operating system such as UNIX.
>>> Does UNIX pose systemic risk to finance, should it be overseen by a central
>>> bank, probably not.
>>>
>>> Thus, the web has lots of lego pieces that you could use to build
>>> payments systems, which I think of as workflows and patterns.  We are at
>>> the very beginning of putting those pieces together.  e.g. paypal may be an
>>> example of this, should that have regulatory oversight, probably yes
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> RE: "if deemed in scope and desirable"
>>>>
>>>> That's where it gets "interesting". At the intersection of Payments
>>>> Architecture and Web Architecture, it is (literally) mission critical for
>>>> the W3C community to bring issues that logically exist in Payments
>>>> Architecture space to the appropriate techical committees over there.
>>>> Attempting to resolve what may be considered "undesireable" Payment
>>>> Architecture issues directly though the Web Architecure is inevitably a
>>>> "work-around", which carries enormous functional and legal risk, and in any
>>>> case, is surely inelegant from an architectural perspective.
>>>>
>>>> In a nutshell, I'm suggesting a radical culling of W3C work-so-far in
>>>> this space. This should not be felt as a rejection of much of the
>>>> work-so-far, rather I suggest that much of the work-so-far identifies
>>>> exactly what the W3C community needs to bring to other standards &
>>>> quasi-standards bodies for consideration within their processes. The
>>>> elements that belong in Payments Architecture space should be brought to
>>>> the appropriate standards & quasi-standards bodies for consideration and
>>>> clarification or resolution. Ditto for the elements that belong in
>>>> e-Commerce Architecture space (OASIS/UBL and UNICITRAL/WG-IV most
>>>> prominently). The W3C IG should then make arrangements to maintain
>>>> proactive liaison with those bodies.
>>>>
>>>> Joseph Potvin
>>>> Operations Manager | Gestionnaire des opérations
>>>> The Opman Company | La compagnie Opman
>>>> jpotvin@opman.ca <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jpotvin@opman.ca');>
>>>> Mobile: 819-593-5983
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Melvin Carvalho <
>>>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com
>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','melvincarvalho@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 14 May 2015 at 17:25, Joseph Potvin <jpotvin@opman.ca
>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jpotvin@opman.ca');>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> RE: a "Payments Architecture"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example:
>>>>>> https://www.bis.org/cpmi/publ/d43.htm?
>>>>>> https://www.bis.org/cpmi/publ/d43.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's been acknowledged in W3C WP discussions that ISO 20022 will need
>>>>>> to be engaged, but that's not all. On the e-Commece environment more
>>>>>> generally, I have mentioned in other posts to this list:
>>>>>> http://ubl.xml.org/  ...and some other core parts of the contexts in
>>>>>> which work on web payments must confortably sit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah I see.  My confusion arose around the term "architecture", to which
>>>>> I think of web architecture.  The docs you reference, in my mind I'd
>>>>> probably think of as "industry patterns".  It would be interesting to see
>>>>> what the overlap is there.  I believe the web can model everything in the
>>>>> documents referenced, if deemed in scope and desirable.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joseph Potvin
>>>>>> Operations Manager | Gestionnaire des opérations
>>>>>> The Opman Company | La compagnie Opman
>>>>>> jpotvin@opman.ca <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jpotvin@opman.ca');>
>>>>>> Mobile: 819-593-5983
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Melvin Carvalho <
>>>>>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','melvincarvalho@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 14 May 2015 at 16:59, Joseph Potvin <jpotvin@opman.ca
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jpotvin@opman.ca');>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The issue that I'm raising is that a "Payments Architecture" in
>>>>>>>> general is orthogonal to the "Architecture of the World Wide Web". Any
>>>>>>>> architecture for "web mediated payments" needs to reference a Payments
>>>>>>>> Architecture that is abstracted from whatever media are employed. And any
>>>>>>>> architecture for "web mediated e-commerce" needs to reference an Commerce
>>>>>>>> Architecture that is abstracted from whatever media are employed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think I may be slightly confused as to the functions of a
>>>>>>> "Payments Architecture", that are not covered in awww, or the ontologies.
>>>>>>> Would you be able to elaborate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joseph Potvin
>>>>>>>> Operations Manager | Gestionnaire des opérations
>>>>>>>> The Opman Company | La compagnie Opman
>>>>>>>> jpotvin@opman.ca <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jpotvin@opman.ca');>
>>>>>>>> Mobile: 819-593-5983
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Melvin Carvalho <
>>>>>>>> melvincarvalho@gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','melvincarvalho@gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 14 May 2015 at 16:08, Joseph Potvin <jpotvin@opman.ca
>>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jpotvin@opman.ca');>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I would like to raise a general consideration to the CG list:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What aspects of a "Web Payments: Technical Architecture" are
>>>>>>>>>> unique to "Web" mediated payment, what what aspects are generic to payment
>>>>>>>>>> via any medium?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that a generic payments technical architecture
>>>>>>>>>> provides the functional system environment within and upon which a Web
>>>>>>>>>> payments technical architecture occurs.  Therefore it seems to me critical
>>>>>>>>>> to clearly separate these two in the document.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The thought I'm attempting to underline is that a Web Payments
>>>>>>>>>> Technical Architecture must point to an explicit external source that
>>>>>>>>>> provides a generic Payments Achitecture, preferably one provided and
>>>>>>>>>> maintained by a genuine global standards body, or something that in effect
>>>>>>>>>> serves that function. The generic Payment Architecture ought to be
>>>>>>>>>> sufficiently refined as to be consistent across all media
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A Web Payments Technical Architecture must (I would have thought)
>>>>>>>>>> restrict its additive scope to that which is within the domain of the W3C,
>>>>>>>>>> while explicitly referencing (in its text and diagrams) the generic
>>>>>>>>>> Payments Achitecture that it is engaging.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Web arch is about naming things using URIs as per awww [1].  The
>>>>>>>>> payments work builds on that, and leverages other web technologies such as
>>>>>>>>> HTTP, linked data, JSON LD etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Joseph Potvin
>>>>>>>>>> Operations Manager | Gestionnaire des opérations
>>>>>>>>>> The Opman Company | La compagnie Opman
>>>>>>>>>> jpotvin@opman.ca
>>>>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jpotvin@opman.ca');>
>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: 819-593-5983
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- Joseph Potvin
>>>>>>>> Operations Manager | Gestionnaire des opérations
>>>>>>>> The Opman Company | La compagnie Opman
>>>>>>>> jpotvin@opman.ca <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jpotvin@opman.ca');>
>>>>>>>> Mobile: 819-593-5983
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> <819-593-5983>
>