W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-webpayments@w3.org > September 2014

Re: Building Linked Data into the Core of the Web

From: Dave Lampton <dave.lampton@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 12:08:35 -0700
Message-ID: <CAHbN0ewdHcGT2DHL8+guhS=cVzEyZXmi_NTenh+X7KJSDGKk=A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Web Payments CG <public-webpayments@w3.org>
To say we've always had linked data is kind of silly, I think. A cop-out,
indeed.

>From day 1 the proposal back in 1989 was of an information system where
> data is linked.
>

Yes, of course, but there is a fundamental difference that seems to be
easily forgotten in this conversation. The first twenty five years of the
Web have seen it held together by mostly ad-hoc human choices for URLs
behind hyperlinks to an endless network of human-readable "pages". Let's
remember that when we're speaking of "Linked Data" we should all know we
are really speaking of logically organized networks of *machine-readable
data*, where RDF triples will ultimately reap entirely new knowledge from
(seemingly) unrelated data. Often this data will be sitting behind
well-designed APIs. I still think of a Web application as a presentation to
human users over a browser platform. What Linked Data (or the Semantic Web
or whatever we end up calling it), will be bringing to us more and more
over time is an entirely new knowledge base just waiting for people to take
advantage of. Much of the Big Data exploration will not be done so much by
the public, nor by humans browsing pages at all. The frontier of discovery
will be mostly explored by programmers and data scientists using machines
(of course) and intelligent agents, etc. Whether we use RDF or JSON-LD or
something else is a secondary issue, as long as our data get their
semantics attached. I'm all in favor of embracing standards but which of
those are the best choices only become clear over time. For another
example, it behooves us to standardize the way we choose the URIs for our
APIs, as not only should they be "cool
<http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html.en>", there should also be more
formalized guidelines for constructing "URI Schema". But I digress.

Dave Lampton
* @dave_lampton <https://twitter.com/dave_lampton>*
* +DaveLampton <https://www.google.com/+DaveLampton>*
www.linkedin.com/in/davelampton/



On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
wrote:

>  On 9/19/14 3:04 PM, Brent Shambaugh wrote:
>
>   I think there is a difference between the web as Tim Berners-Lee
> envisioned it and the web as it is (or perceived).
>
>
> I would say there's a difference between Web's actual architecture and how
> its being used, in regards to Web application development.
>
>   To be honest, until a couple of years ago I did not even know Tim
> Berners-Lee existed, but I knew that the web did.
>
>
> That's fine, the Web's Architectural dexterity isn't the sole effort of
> one man. TimBL will tell you that, any day. That said, his fundamental
> vision lies at the base of the aforementioned architecture.
>
>
>  In the 90's I knew about AOL because they provided internet, and I wanted
> it because of all the cool things provided with it.
>
>  In the late 90's I learned about Linux because there was a smart kid that
> used it and was enthusiastic about it. Unfortunately I did not use it till
> later because I was a bit afraid of tux the penguin, and I did not think I
> was good at math, nor did I believe I was smart enough to figure it out.
>
>  In college some kids said that I should try out Facebook. It looked
> impressive, I was excited to reconnect with old friends, and I had no clue
> how it might work.
>
>  I think it is all about perception. Once people see linked data for what
> it can do (and are enthusiastic about it), and believe they can use it,
> then they will.
>
>
> Yes, and the trouble is that in "Linked Data" the original narrative sorta
> go hijacked (I have no better characterization term) which lead to more
> confusion that clarity. The one thing I like about the JSON-LD narrative is
> that it stayed way clear of those fundamental mistakes, in regards to meme
> construction. Net effect, it has provided an effective bridge for "Web
> Developers" that are focused on JSON notation for structured data
> representation.
>
> It's one thing to have technology, its another thing to construct a
> coherent narrative for a target demographic.
>
> Kingsley
>
>
>
>
>  -Brent Shambaugh
>
> Website: bshambaugh.org
>
> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 3:35 AM, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 19 September 2014 03:49, Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/14/2014 04:58 PM, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>>> > It is misleading (albeit inadvertent in regards to your post above)
>>> > to infer that Linked Data isn't already the core of the Web. The
>>> > absolute fact of the matter is that Linked Data has been the core of
>>> > the Web since it was an idea [1][2].
>>>
>>> Well, that's one of the points I make at the beginning of the talk. I
>>> also mention that saying "Linked Data" is part of the core of the web is
>>> a bit of a cop-out. Web developers don't understand that, and until they
>>> do, I don't consider Linked Data as a core part of the Web in the same
>>> way that HTML, Javascript, and HTTP is a core part of the Web. I was not
>>> just coming at this from a technical standpoint, I was also making a
>>> statement about the general Web developer community's understanding of
>>> Linked Data.
>>>
>>
>>  Not only is linked data part of the web, it was the *motivation* for
>> the web.
>>
>> From day 1 the proposal back in 1989 was of an information system where
>> data is linked:
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html
>>
>>  We have a lost generation of web 2.0 developers that mostly havent seen
>> or understood the implications of that document.
>>
>>  But saying that linked data is not in the core of the web is a bit like
>> saying anonymous functions are not in the core of JavaScript.  Now it's
>> true that 10 years ago most JS developers would not realize the elegance of
>> the language.  But Douglas Cockroft came along and blew that all away with
>> his "JavaScript, the good parts".
>>
>>  There are different ways to convey the message, but I think it's hard
>> to dispute that linked data is core to the web.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> > Instead, we ended up with an incomprehensible, indefensible, and at
>>> > best draconian narrative that has forever tainted the letters "R-D-F"
>>> > . And HttpRange-14 as a censorship tool (based on its ridiculous
>>> > history), that blurs fixing this horrible state of affairs.
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> -- manu
>>>
>>> --
>>> Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny)
>>> Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
>>> blog: The Marathonic Dawn of Web Payments
>>> http://manu.sporny.org/2014/dawn-of-web-payments/
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Kingsley Idehen	
> Founder & CEO
> OpenLink Software
> Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
> Personal Weblog 1: http://kidehen.blogspot.com
> Personal Weblog 2: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
> Twitter Profile: https://twitter.com/kidehen
> Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/+KingsleyIdehen/about
> LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
> Personal WebID: http://kingsley.idehen.net/dataspace/person/kidehen#this
>
>
Received on Sunday, 21 September 2014 19:09:03 UTC

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