W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-webpayments@w3.org > September 2014

Re: Apple Pay

From: Tim Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 13:12:39 +1000
Cc: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>, Web Payments CG <public-webpayments@w3.org>
Message-Id: <66CA9489-0DD7-4BA3-B407-219422279814@gmail.com>
To: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
The Standout opportunity IMHO appears to be in the receipting function.

(bit of a rant, lots of thoughts all piled in ;) )

The apple-pay info seems to suggest in some regions, there’s a problem with getting the merchants to support NFC. In other areas, Apple appear to be involved in press surrounding privacy with respect to their health products.

With respect to payments; Part of my research for payments (2011 ish) looked at the digital receipt function as a means to support engagement, especially for SME’s who traditionally would not be large enough to warrant a consumer carrying a loyalty card with them.

The best schema i found was ArtsXML[1] and i wonder whether we’ve contacted them at all? 

The ability to create a well-formed receipt benefits the product suppliers (brands) merchants (stores) and end-users. Research suggested that only a few types of retail software exist in each market (i.e. AU has 2-3 Cinema POS vendors, Hairdressing POS, etc.) and that the hardware cost is about $80, which is less expensive than giving away plastic loyalty cards…

IMO, the ability for individuals to store these types of records securely somewhere of their choosing (by a vendor of their choosing, not by definition of device MFG, for example) is part of the problem that i feel is likely Apple will start to really highlight in the market as they continue into this field of linked-data.

Equally; i see a role for legislation surrounding the establishment of ‘knowledge banking providers’, including safeguards, etc.

I maintain my view that sovereignty / citizenship is important. Anonymity is as important as diplomacy.  our systems of democracy allow us to participate in the political / governance processes pursuant to citizenship.  It only seems reasonable that well defined technology, should acknowledge these sociological principles also; in the interests of democracy / rule of law / systems of law.

when it gets down to it - we’re all people - yet, we’re in a world that has a bunch of rules, build over a very long period of time, and evolution means adaption. 

In AUS; I found an interesting business, called “rewardle”[2] who have simply rolled-out tablets, at POS, with 2d barcode scanning.  Whilst in an ideological way, perhaps, i hope these sorts of systems could be more decentralised - i note that most retailers would probably prefer a free solution, so an economic model needs to offset that behaviour.  IMHO, Rewardle seemed like a great example of an innovative business system that could define a long-term business by improving relationships between vendors & customers (B2B, B2C, etc.)

perhaps importantly; the ‘data rights’ aspects (privacy, etc.) is another area, presenting a host of opportunity.  IMHO, this area of technology is an example of something that could get people into their own, secure, safe, ‘knowledge banking’ account systems using RWW tech. etc. 

Unless we deal with the underlying issue of having a solution available (two actually, one is an infrastructure solution, the other is a bit like a next generation linux project (not a machine OS) ) i doubt the distinctions between what is possible, and goto market, will be easily understood by others.  Perhaps arguably, Google Drive, GitHub, DropBox are starting to provide cloud-storage services - yet i think the ‘choice of law’ is still US based? 

Then when considering it through the lens of a different ideology [3] - a discussion on this level with a technical lay-person (a former catholic brother) brought the word ‘communism’ - responding to the idea, that the state should reasonably be in control of everything.  the concept that it is reasonable to provide us, the people, simply a ‘window’ to our lives rather than the opportunity to self-determination, or as can otherwise be conceptualised - the opportunity to grow to our fullest potential.  in terms of undefinable threats; Who knows what assumptions may be made in such large systems, and how these assumptions may serve to funnel people into an area subsequently found to be synthetically narrowed due to some political thinking of a time, or lack of sufficient research in an area.  at the moment one of the bigger security threats happens when passwords or credit card numbers are drawn from these huge silos - the future, has far more complex issues…  

In some-ways, within this field of work, these are some of my biggest concerns; that whereas existing movements seek to open the doors to public data, improving research capabilities dramatically - through data, this is realistically a threat to those organisations relying upon systems of selective, nepotistic practices or mechanisms of plutocracy; as the capacity to selectively furnish data through specific funded programs becomes a thing of the past, as the movement and utility of public data becomes pervasive in its reflections of economic facts; therein, and whereas,

we’re developing technology for ‘linked data’, knowing they’re powerful technologies (or rather methodologies) for silo’s, and decentralised web opportunities alike. Whether, we’re seeking to build payment systems that offer improvements to economic stability, accessibility, terms of trade, etc.

choices are made regardless.  without considering the needs, the desire, the requirements surrounding governance, legislation and what may be conceptualised in short-hand as ‘data rights’, the investment flows may or may not result in a positive yield.  Path to market may become obscured, not by science but perhaps vested interests? it starts to become opaque when considering why it is - that individuals today, do not have reasonable terms for storing their data, akin to the concept of a ‘knowledge bank’ would otherwise predicate. 

iPhones manufacture xxx million units per year - not sure what the expected (usable) life-span of the product is, but of course - ‘we' can always find the resources to make and sell more, that’s how the economy works, right? 

That won’t always be the case, understanding a few scenarios exist around how this scheme of economics can change. In concept, the ideology of a ‘knowledge economy’ is a tremendous thing.  the troubling thing, is working out the path to get there sustainably.   If we created a model of data, as though it was money - and silo’s like bank-accounts.  What would be necessary to convince, or introduce the idea of providing bank-accounts to individuals if only corporations had them in previous iterations? what would be the benefits to democracies? what would be needed to govern the ‘banks’ providing such services? 

with respect to triple bottom lines;  The PM, Tony Abbott in Australia, has gone to market with this concept of ‘direct action’, therein flying in the face of carbon-economy politics, economics, etc.  

in personal reflection - problems like having a really cheap solar panel (where the MFG Toxins are not recycled effectively at the MFG Plant) which sets the gov. rebate / funding levels, going to market against other panels (where the MFG may have spend $$$ on recycling capabilities, improved lifespan, performance of product, etc.) results in a ‘sticker value’ difference; that without some clever receipting system, 

May not mean the customer has a great deal of ‘data’ to make decisions around which is ‘the best panel’ for the environmentally motivated buyer.

Therein; an illustration of the difference in environmental politics surrounding ‘carbon economy’ vs. ‘direct action’, as australia, nowadays - doesn’t really have a significant manufacturing base / economy.  we mostly mine minerals for export.

Thanks for reading.  

Perhaps we can have a think about the receipt system.  can’t imagine having an ‘iPhone only’ NFC reader / POS plugin.  

Also; perhaps we need to get a wriggle on with establishing more RWW apps / infrastructure.  I think i’ll pick that up in the RWW group.  

Yet - what i really want?  is an easily deployable (almost as easy as wordpress) RWW ‘knowledge banking’ environment, that’s got a bunch of useful apps; and a medium of developers all collaborating on building new stuff, in a way that means they’re getting rewarded for building free software, for a decentralised web. 

i think we need to figure out a way to improve our participation, cooperation, collaboration, around supporting works necessary to realise some outcomes that may be difficult to fund through traditional means.

TimH.

[1] https://nrf.com/resources/retail-technology-standards/xml-schemas
[2] http://www.rewardle.com/
[3] http://www.businessinsider.com.au/within-5-years-digital-twins-could-start-making-decisions-for-us-2014-9
[4] https://www.hbbtv.org/pages/about_hbbtv/specification.php

On 21 Sep 2014, at 11:44 am, Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com> wrote:

> On 09/18/2014 09:59 AM, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>> Your response is a little confusing here. Remember the view point
>> you held re. Nigeria+Mastercard obliteration of privacy for all
>> Nigerian citizens.
> 
> It might be confusing because we're miscommunicating. :)
> 
> What exactly is confusing about my response?
> 
>> Look, Apple is using their clout to make a better ecosystem for
>> handling payments. I don't see how anything produced on the standards
>> front would be contrary to Apple's long-term goals in regards to
>> payments. Note, they always leverage industry standards in their
>> solutions, in many cases better than all of their competitors.
> 
> Apple leverages industry standards in a way that wraps a proprietary
> layer or silo around them. Again, good on Apple - it's led to them being
> a well respected technology company. That approach, however, is not our
> approach - we're not trying to create a silo. Apple /may/ create a silo
> around the Web Payments stuff, and that's fine, but I'd imagine it would
> be in a larger non-silo'ed Web Payments ecosystem.
> 
>> Lesson #1 will be that Apple Pay isn't a closed system.
> 
> Then PayPal, Square, and Stripe can integrate with Apple Pay w/o the
> blessing of Apple?
> 
> What's your definition of "closed system"?
> 
>> Ultimately, Bitcoins will rule, that's where the expanse of the Web
>> will ultimately kick-in and totally inflect everything :-)
> 
> Ultimately, a set of standards will come along that tie in Apple Pay,
> Google Wallet, Square, and Bitcoin together in a way that brings about a
> much better experience wrt. exchanging value via the Web. That's what
> we're trying to do here w/ the Web Payments work.
> 
> -- manu
> 
> -- 
> Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny)
> Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
> blog: The Marathonic Dawn of Web Payments
> http://manu.sporny.org/2014/dawn-of-web-payments/
> 
Received on Sunday, 21 September 2014 03:18:36 UTC

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