Re: any discussion thread for page encodings?

On 2012-07-30 06:46, Mountie Lee wrote:
> Hi.
> thanks for your mail.
> 
> for "prevent and control"
> the "same origin" policy is not enough I think.
> 
> some attackers are focusing to compromise PC environment.
> many attempts are made on PC level.

Hi Mountie,
My (non_WG) take on such issues is that they are not and should not be addressed
by a standard like Web Crypto because you will always end-up with more or less
strange assumptions that will be hard to prove (measure).

PCs represent a very slow target for innovation.  A consumer PC may
last as long as 5 years without getting a new OS as well.

"Our" only hope are mobile devices.  There will be various Trusted Execution
solutions as early as this fall.  Since mobile device do not have the
concept of Administrator or super user, I think they will be easier to
protect.

Regarding payment applications, they will get entirely new schemes
where a key either will be owned/management by the payment app, or be
marked as trusting a specific set of app-issuers.  This work is actually
pursued by the vendors right now but is not (yet) a target for standardization,
it is rather quite secret...

I'm personally trying to create a standard for the above.  However,
the adoption of this work is of course hard to tell.

Regards,
Anders

> 
> with "same origin" policy, well designed web application can protect XSS or Cross Site Scripting attack.
> 
> I think we need one of followings.
> Integrity checking mechanism
> or
> protecting DOM object
> 
> the description "webcrypto based methods should not permit DOM changes"
> in Transaction Security use cases 
> in http://www.w3.org/wiki/KoreaWebCryptoUseCase
> is described based on same idea of me.
> 
> regards
> mountie.
> 
> On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 6:07 PM, Ryan Sleevi <sleevi@google.com <mailto:sleevi@google.com>> wrote:
> 
>     On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 1:29 AM, Mountie Lee <mountie.lee@gmail.com <mailto:mountie.lee@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > Hi. Ryan.
>     > yes. I read in charter and use cases for "prevent and control"
>     > but no details.
>     >
>     > I remember someone mentioned "signed JS". but that is not acceptable for
>     > wider use.
>     >
>     > can we consider "arguments.callee" (but this is depreciated in ECMA-262)
>     > plus hash?
>     >
>     > If webcrypto api provide JS/DOM integrity checking feature in low level,
>     > web developers can use it for many purpose including "prevent and control"
>     >
>     > regards
>     > mountie.
> 
>     Hi Mountie,
> 
>     The intent of "prevent and control" is limited in the scope of same
>     origin. There are no attempts being made, and it's largely out of
>     scope for this WG, to try to change or redefine the web security
>     model. This includes the use of arguments.callee.
> 
>     All script executing in the context of the same origin is therefore
>     able to interact with this API. This is also highlighted in the
>     editor's draft under Security Concerns. Applications should thus make
>     use of available functionality, such as CSP, to reduce the risk of
>     cross-site-scripting and other script related attacks. Any further
>     refinements are better suited for the charter of the W3C's Web
>     Application Security Working Group.
> 
>     After our recent face-to-face, the question of signed JS, which is a
>     proposal that had limited qualification and was relayed second-hand,
>     was raised as a point of concern. Those who originally proposed it are
>     being asked to further clarify and refine what their use case was, to
>     better understand where it fits within the scope of this groups
>     charter.
> 
>     Note that with a low-level API, an application could certainly
>     introduce it's own signature verification methods around script
>     content that is passed to either JSON.parse or to eval, which afford
>     application-defined security without requiring this WG to define any
>     additional special APIs.
> 
>     Does that answer your question?
> 
> 
>     >
>     >
>     > On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Ryan Sleevi <sleevi@google.com <mailto:sleevi@google.com>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Mountie Lee <mountie.lee@gmail.com <mailto:mountie.lee@gmail.com>>
>     >> wrote:
>     >> > Hi. Ryan.
>     >> >
>     >> > thanks for your answer.
>     >> >
>     >> > as my understanding, the initial requirement has include "sign with user
>     >> > confirmation".
>     >> > that means the sign data must be same to the message shown to user
>     >> > screen.
>     >> > just with "sequence of bytes" are not enough for previous requirements.
>     >> >
>     >> > if it is handled in high level API,
>     >> > my additional question is
>     >> >
>     >> > is their any mechanism for preventing secret key material changes or
>     >> > other
>     >> > sensitive cryptographic values and settings changes?
>     >> >
>     >> > regards
>     >> > mountie.
>     >>
>     >> Hi Mountie,
>     >>
>     >> Yes, any scheme which relies on user agents presenting data in some
>     >> interpreted form is out of scope for the low-level API, and /may/ be
>     >> in scope for the high-level API. Because such schemes are
>     >> understandably complex (eg: PDF signatures, XMLsig,
>     >> normalization/canonicalization, etc), these are currently not the
>     >> focus of the working groups efforts, but may be in scope at a later
>     >> time. The current focus is on the low-level API, which does not focus
>     >> on such application-specific issues at this time, as even a low-level
>     >> API is a very ambitious and broad endeavor for user agents to
>     >> normalize.
>     >>
>     >> I'm not sure I understand your second question, but you may find it
>     >> answered by the Working Group charter at
>     >> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/webcryptography-charter.html , which states
>     >> that the API shall prevent or control access to secret key material
>     >> and other sensitive cryptographic values and settings.
>     >>
>     >> Regards,
>     >> Ryan
>     >>
>     >> >
>     >> >
>     >> > On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Ryan Sleevi <sleevi@google.com <mailto:sleevi@google.com>> wrote:
>     >> >>
>     >> >> Hi Mountie,
>     >> >>
>     >> >> There were early discussions about page encodings and normalization,
>     >> >> when the API included both a high-level and a low-level component.
>     >> >> Following our recent Working Group face to face, the Working Group has
>     >> >> resolved to focus on the low-level API and ensure that it's in a
>     >> >> deliverable state, and then revisit the ideas for a high-level API.
>     >> >>
>     >> >> By virtue of being a low-level API, issues such as encoding are left
>     >> >> to the application author. This can be seen also in the removal of
>     >> >> DOMString (which is UTF-16) from being a valid input to the
>     >> >> CryptoOperation.processData method, since that would have opened
>     >> >> questions of "Is it a sequence of bytes or is it a string?"
>     >> >>
>     >> >> Right now, the API's interaction with data streams is accomplished via
>     >> >> ArrayBuffer/ArrayBufferViews, which are treated as opaque sequences of
>     >> >> bytes. Any further normalization or canonicalization should thus be
>     >> >> done at an application layer.
>     >> >>
>     >> >> Does this answer your question?
>     >> >>
>     >> >> On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 5:25 PM, mountie.lee@gmail.com <mailto:mountie.lee@gmail.com>
>     >> >> <mountie.lee@gmail.com <mailto:mountie.lee@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     >> >> >
>     >> >> >> Hi.
>     >> >> >> I'm Mountie Lee from Korea.
>     >> >> >>
>     >> >> >> when I read http://www.w3.org/2012/webcrypto/WebCryptoAPI/ and
>     >> >> >> searched
>     >> >> >> archive at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webcrypto/
>     >> >> >>
>     >> >> >> I can not find discussion about page encodings.
>     >> >> >>
>     >> >> >> because WebCryptoAPI is Javascript dependent and developers have to
>     >> >> >> consider page encodings always.
>     >> >> >>
>     >> >> >> many asian sites use local encodings (EUC-KR, Shift-JIS, GB2312 ...)
>     >> >> >> and by the page encodings,
>     >> >> >> the javascript operation result is different.
>     >> >> >>
>     >> >> >> please anyone inform me the discussio thread for page encodings.
>     >> >> >>
>     >> >> >> regards
>     >> >> >> mountie.
>     >> >> >>
>     >> >> >> --
>     >> >> >> Mountie Lee
>     >> >> >>
>     >> >> >> Tel : +82 2 2140 2700
>     >> >> >> E-Mail : mountie@paygate.net <mailto:mountie@paygate.net>
>     >> >> >> Twitter : mountielee
>     >> >> >
>     >> >
>     >> >
>     >> >
>     >> >
>     >> > --
>     >> > Mountie Lee
>     >> >
>     >> > Tel : +82 2 2140 2700
>     >> > E-Mail : mountie@paygate.net <mailto:mountie@paygate.net>
>     >> > Twitter : mountielee
>     >> >
>     >> > =======================================
>     >> > PayGate Inc.
>     >> > THE STANDARD FOR ONLINE PAYMENT
>     >> > for Korea, Japan, China, and the World
>     >> >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > Mountie Lee
>     >
>     > Tel : +82 2 2140 2700
>     > E-Mail : mountie@paygate.net <mailto:mountie@paygate.net>
>     > Twitter : mountielee
>     >
>     > =======================================
>     > PayGate Inc.
>     > THE STANDARD FOR ONLINE PAYMENT
>     > for Korea, Japan, China, and the World
>     >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mountie Lee
> 
> Tel : +82 2 2140 2700
> E-Mail : mountie@paygate.net <mailto:mountie@paygate.net>
> Twitter : mountielee
> 
> =======================================
> PayGate Inc.
> THE STANDARD FOR ONLINE PAYMENT
> for Korea, Japan, China, and the World
> 
> 
> 
>

Received on Monday, 30 July 2012 06:07:16 UTC