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Re: QSA, the problem with ":scope", and naming

From: Brian Kardell <bkardell@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:59:51 -0400
Message-ID: <CADC=+jdP7TxCv4kLR7Sy4kKPfgQ_51P=QKcxb-=hK8q7ncDhhw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Alex Russell <slightlyoff@google.com>
Cc: Webapps WG <public-webapps@w3.org>, Yehuda Katz <wycats@gmail.com>, John Resig <jeresig@gmail.com>, Paul Irish <paulirish@google.com>, Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au>
I know that there were discussions that crossed over into CSS about a
@global or a :context which could sort of include things outside the
scope as part of the query but not be the subject.  Does any of that
relate here?

- Brian

> Out come the knives! You can't start a selector with a combinator!
Even on CSS lists this has been proposed inside of pseudos... Numerous
times and in numerous contexts.   It seems to me that everyone (even
the people who disagree with the proposal) knows what it means
immediately - but you are right... That's always the response.  So at
the risk of being stabbed by an angry mob:  Can someone explain _why_
you can't - under absolutely any circumstances - begin a selector with
a combinator - even if there appears to be wide agreement that it
makes sense in a finite set of circumstances?

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Alex Russell <slightlyoff@google.com> wrote:
> Lachlan and I have been having an...um...*spirited* twitter discussion
> regarding querySelectorAll, the (deceased?) queryScopedSelectorAll,
> and ":scope". He asked me to continue here, so I'll try to keep it
> short:
> The rooted forms of "querySelector" and "querySelectorAll" are mis-designed.
> Discussions about a Scoped variant or ":scope" pseudo tacitly
> acknowledge this, and the JS libraries are proof in their own right:
> no major JS library exposes the QSA semantic, instead choosing to
> implement a rooted search.
> Related and equally important, that querySelector and querySelectorAll
> are often referred to by the abbreviation "QSA" suggests that its name
> is bloated and improved versions should have shorter names. APIs gain
> use both through naming and through use. On today's internet -- the
> one where 50% of all websites include jQuery -- you could even go with
> element.$("selector") and everyone would know what you mean: it's
> clearly a search rooted at the element on the left-hand side of the
> dot.
> Ceteris peribus, shorter is better. When there's a tie that needs to
> be broken, the more frequently used the API, the shorter the name it
> deserves -- i.e., the larger the component of its meaning it will gain
> through use and repetition and not naming and documentation.
> I know some on this list might disagree, but all of the above is
> incredibly non-controversial today. Even if there may have been
> debates about scoping or naming when QSA was originally designed,
> history has settled them. And QSA lost on both counts.
> I therefore believe that this group's current design for scoped
> selection could be improved significantly. If I understand the latest
> draft (http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-api2/#the-scope-pseudo-class)
> correctly, a scoped search for multiple elements would be written as:
>   element.querySelectorAll(":scope > div > .thinger");
> Both then name and the need to specify ":scope" are punitive to
> readers and writers of this code. The selector is *obviously*
> happening in relationship to "element" somehow. The only sane
> relationship (from a modern JS hacker's perspective) is that it's
> where our selector starts from. I'd like to instead propose that we
> shorten all of this up and kill both stones by introducing a new API
> pair, "find" and "findAll", that are rooted as JS devs expect. The
> above becomes:
>   element.findAll("> div > .thinger");
> Out come the knives! You can't start a selector with a combinator!
> Ah, but we don't need to care what CSS thinks of our DOM-only API. We
> can live and let live by building on ":scope" and specifying find* as
> syntactic sugar, defined as:
>  HTMLDocument.prototype.find =
>  HTMLElement.prototype.find = function(rootedSelector) {
>     return this.querySelector(":scope " + rootedSelector);
>   }
>   HTMLDocument.prototype.findAll =
>   HTMLElement.prototype.findAll = function(rootedSelector) {
>     return this.querySelectorAll(":scope " + rootedSelector);
>   }
> Of course, ":scope" in this case is just a special case of the ID
> rooting hack, but if we're going to have it, we can kill both birds
> with it.
> Obvious follow up questions:
> Q.) Why do we need this at all? Don't the toolkits already just do
> this internally?
> A.) Are you saying everyone, everywhere, all the time should need to
> use a toolkit to get sane behavior from the DOM? If so, what are we
> doing here, exactly?
> Q.) Shorter names? Those are for weaklings!
> A.) And humans. Who still constitute most of our developers. Won't
> someone please think of the humans?
> Q.) You're just duplicating things!
> A.) If you ignore all of the things that are different, then that's
> true. If not, well, then no. This is a change. And a good one for the
> reasons listed above.
> Thoughts?
Received on Tuesday, 18 October 2011 20:00:29 UTC

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