W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-webapps@w3.org > July to September 2010

Re: [IndexedDB] Current editor's draft

From: Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:21:57 -0700
Message-ID: <AANLkTimFmcQ3Jq1wgzhs3hRf46BTCrjJu1mVtN4ytPvz@mail.gmail.com>
To: Nikunj Mehta <nikunj@o-micron.com>
Cc: Pablo Castro <Pablo.Castro@microsoft.com>, Jeremy Orlow <jorlow@chromium.org>, Andrei Popescu <andreip@google.com>, public-webapps <public-webapps@w3.org>
On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 8:09 AM, Nikunj Mehta <nikunj@o-micron.com> wrote:
>
> On Jul 22, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Nikunj Mehta <nikunj@o-micron.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 5:41 AM, Pablo Castro wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: jorlow@google.com [mailto:jorlow@google.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Orlow
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 8:41 AM
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Andrei Popescu <andreip@google.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 3:24 PM, Jeremy Orlow <jorlow@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Andrei Popescu <andreip@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Jeremy Orlow <jorlow@chromium.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Nikunj, could you clarify how locking works for the dynamic
>>>>>>>>>> transactions proposal that is in the spec draft right now?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd definitely like to hear what Nikunj originally intended here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hmm, after re-reading the current spec, my understanding is that:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Scope consists in a set of object stores that the transaction operates
>>>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>>> - A connection may have zero or one active transactions.
>>>>>>>> - There may not be any overlap among the scopes of all active
>>>>>>>> transactions (static or dynamic) in a given database. So you cannot
>>>>>>>> have two READ_ONLY static transactions operating simultaneously over
>>>>>>>> the same object store.
>>>>>>>> - The granularity of locking for dynamic transactions is not specified
>>>>>>>> (all the spec says about this is "do not acquire locks on any database
>>>>>>>> objects now. Locks are obtained as the application attempts to access
>>>>>>>> those objects").
>>>>>>>> - Using dynamic transactions can lead to dealocks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given the changes in 9975, here's what I think the spec should say for
>>>>>>>> now:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - There can be multiple active static transactions, as long as their
>>>>>>>> scopes do not overlap, or the overlapping objects are locked in modes
>>>>>>>> that are not mutually exclusive.
>>>>>>>> - [If we decide to keep dynamic transactions] There can be multiple
>>>>>>>> active dynamic transactions. TODO: Decide what to do if they start
>>>>>>>> overlapping:
>>>>>>>>   -- proceed anyway and then fail at commit time in case of
>>>>>>>> conflicts. However, I think this would require implementing MVCC, so
>>>>>>>> implementations that use SQLite would be in trouble?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Such implementations could just lock more conservatively (i.e. not allow
>>>>>>> other transactions during a dynamic transaction).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Umm, I am not sure how useful dynamic transactions would be in that
>>>>>> case...Ben Turner made the same comment earlier in the thread and I
>>>>>> agree with him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, dynamic transactions would not be useful on those implementations, but the point is that you could still implement the spec without a MVCC backend--though it would limit the concurrency that's possible.  Thus "implementations that use SQLite would" NOT necessarily "be in trouble".
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, I'm glad this conversation came up so we can sync up on assumptions...mine where:
>>>> - There can be multiple transactions of any kind active against a given database session (see note below)
>>>> - Multiple static transactions may overlap as long as they have compatible modes, which in practice means they are all READ_ONLY
>>>> - Dynamic transactions have arbitrary granularity for scope (implementation specific, down to row-level locking/scope)
>>>
>>> Dynamic transactions should be able to lock as little as necessary and as late as required.
>>
>> So dynamic transactions, as defined in your proposal, didn't lock on a
>> whole-objectStore level?
>
> That is not correct. I said that the original intention was to make dynamic transactions lock as little and as late as possible. However, the current spec does not state explicitly that dynamic transactions should not lock the entire objectStore, but it could.
>
>> If so, how does the author specify which rows
>> are locked?
>
> Again, the intention is to do this directly from the actions performed by the application and the affected keys

The two above statements confuse me.

The important question is: Pablo is clearly suggesting that dynamic
transactions should not use whole-objectStore locks, but rather
row-level locks, or possibly range locks. Is this what you are
suggesting too?

>> And why is then openObjectStore a asynchronous operation
>> that could possibly fail, since at the time when openObjectStore is
>> called, the implementation doesn't know which rows are going to be
>> accessed and so can't determine if a deadlock is occurring?
>
> The open call is used to check if some static transaction has the entire store locked for READ_WRITE. If so, the open call will block.

Given that synchronous vs. asynchronous is just an optimization, I'll
defer this topic until I understand the rest of the proposal better.

>> And is it
>> only possible to lock existing rows, or can you prevent new records
>> from being created?
>
> There's no way to lock yet to be created rows since until a transaction ends, its effects cannot be made visible to other transactions.

So if you have an objectStore with auto-incrementing indexes, there is
the possibility that two dynamic transactions both can add a row to
said objectStore at the same time. Both transactions would then add a
row with the same autogenerated id (one higher than the highest id in
the table). Upon commit, how is this conflict resolved?

What if the objectStore didn't use auto-incrementing indexes, but you
still had two separate dynamic transactions which both insert a row
with the same key. How is the conflict resolved?

>> And is it possible to only use read-locking for
>> some rows, but write-locking for others, in the same objectStore?
>
> An implementation could use shared locks for read operations even though the object store might have been opened in READ_WRITE mode, and later upgrade the locks if the read data is being modified. However, I am not keen to push for this as a specced behavior.

What do you mean by "an implementation could"? Is this left
intentionally undefined and left up to the implementation? Doesn't
that mean that there is significant risk that code could work very
well in a conservative implementation, but often cause race conditions
in a implementation that uses narrower locks? Wouldn't this result in
a "race to the bottom" where implementations are forced to eventually
use very wide locks in order to work well in websites?

In general, there are a lot of details that are unclear in the dynamic
transactions proposals. I'm also not sure if these things are unclear
to me because they are intentionally left undefined, or if you guys
just haven't had time yet to define the details?

As the spec is now, as an implementor I'd have no idea of how to
implement dynamic transactions. And as a user I'd have no idea what
level of protection to expect from implementations, nor what
strategies to use to avoid bugs.

In all the development I've done deadlocks and race conditions are
generally unacceptable, and instead strategies are developed that
avoids them, such as always grab locks in the same order, and always
grab locks when using shared data. I currently have no idea what
strategy to recommend in IndexedDB documentation to developers to
allow them to avoid race conditions and deadlocks.

To get clarity in these questions, I'd *really* *really* like to see a
more detailed proposal.

/ Jonas
Received on Friday, 23 July 2010 20:22:50 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 26 March 2013 18:49:40 GMT