[minutes] Dec 11 teleconf

Hi,

The minutes of our call earlier today are available at:
http://www.w3.org/2013/12/11-webmob-minutes

and copied as text below. Please send corrections to the list.

Dom

                            WebMob Teleconf

11 Dec 2013

   [2]Agenda

      [2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-mobile/2013Dec/0037.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/12/11-webmob-irc

Attendees

   Present
          schuki, Bryan_Sullivan, Dom, dka, stakagi, kotakagi,
          Dominique_Hazael-Massieux, Natasha, Rooney, Marcos, DKA,
          ernesto

   Regrets
   Chair
          Natasha

   Scribe
          dom

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Update on Installable Web Apps Task Force
         2. [6]New Net Info work
         3. [7]Offline Task Force
         4. [8]Permissions Task Force
         5. [9]AOB
     * [10]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <stakagi> hi i am satoru

   <scribe> ScribeNick: dom

   Schuki: light agenda today

Update on Installable Web Apps Task Force

   Schuki: update from Marcos' task force

   <schuki> [11]https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps

     [11] https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps

   Marcos: I've been traveling, so we've slowed down a bit
   ... lots of feedback on the document we've built on
   public-webapps
   ... I'll be filing more bugs based on this
   ... we would like to get a couple more people involved to help
   ... still plenty of work to do, but it's coming along

   Schuki: can you an update on the manifest file more
   specifically?

   marcos: we've been trying to define what the manifest file
   should be
   ... we've looked at the what current Web apps do
   ... and based on this, we've defined what would need to be in a
   manifest
   ... or even if a manifest is needed at all given all that's
   already defined
   ... we have now filed a transition request to publish that
   document as FPWD
   ... the first version is probably richer than what we want in
   the end for IPR reasons
   ... based on my discussions with the Patent and Standards
   Interest Group

   <marcosc> [12]http://w3c.github.io/manifest/releases/FPWD.html

     [12] http://w3c.github.io/manifest/releases/FPWD.html

   marcos: the FPWD should be published shortly
   ... work is continuing on the document, based on use cases
   ... we've also made a call out to developers to get feedback on
   some of the aspects of the manifest

   <schuki> [13]https://gist.github.com/marcoscaceres/7783977

     [13] https://gist.github.com/marcoscaceres/7783977

   marcos: with plenty of retweets

   <marcosc> [14]https://gist.github.com/marcoscaceres/7783977

     [14] https://gist.github.com/marcoscaceres/7783977

   <bryan> natasha, one topic we could add is mobile-effective UI
   features/design for privacy preferences management - we can add
   some ideas to the manifest discussion on that

   marcos: we got a very good range of feedback
   ... incl. from non-W3C people

   <dka> Anything from the feedback that potentially changes your
   thinking on the manifest?

   schuki: bryan mentions on IRC privacy-features management

   marcos: send feedback and ideas on the github repo

   <marcosc> bryan:
   [15]http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/#security-a
   nd-privacy

     [15]
http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/#security-and-privacy

   dka: any thing from the feedback that is triggering substantive
   changes?

   marcos: some people quite opposed to the notion of a manifest
   ... suggestions to avoid inventing new names but instead to
   re-use the ones defined in HTML
   ... I had proposed to use the <script> element and got feedback
   this would break a lot of stuff
   ... feedback on no need for an inline manifest declaration
   ... great feedback in general

   dka: there was a proposal that Alex Russel had made on how to
   incorporate permissions in manifest

   marcos: I'm hoping he'll raise this to our repo once he has a
   chance

   dka: this could come out of a discussion we're planning at an
   upcoming TAG meeting with Dom

   <Zakim> bryan, you wanted to ask about the manifest privacy
   info

   bryan: to wrap that up, related to what DKA was talking about,
   ... I haven't seen yet the details of how the capabilities and
   intents of applications will be disclosed in the manifest
   ... similar to what was done in widgets or in WAC
   ... would be interesting to look more into that

   marcos: it would be useful for this group to report on what has
   been done in previous projects, what academic research has
   shown in this field

   <marcosc> bryan:
   [16]https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/issues/12

     [16] https://github.com/w3c-webmob/installable-webapps/issues/12

   marcos: this would inform the work on permissioning

   bryan: would be good to document what people have been using
   and their experience with that

   <marcosc> bryan: [17]https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/75

     [17] https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/75

   <marcosc>
   [18]https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/75#issuecomment-2946
   1650

     [18]
https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/75#issuecomment-29461650

   marcos: ben francis has made a bunch of research on existing
   runtimes

   <bryan> thanks, obviously a lot to catch up on - we'll review
   and comment

   marcos: another mozilla's person indicated possible interest in
   looking into this
   ... which matches one of the task forces of this group
   ... bryan, you'd be most welcome to help document what's been
   done in this space

New Net Info work

   <schuki> [19]https://github.com/w3c-webmob/netinfo

     [19] https://github.com/w3c-webmob/netinfo

   Schuki: Marcos started this new github repo looking at use
   cases and requirements for the network info API
   ... that API has been discussed in a number of groups
   ... Marcos and others are documenting the use cases that native
   apps use for that kind of API
   ... e.g. dropbox making it optional to sync on cellular data
   ... or big downloads only on wifi
   ... We understand the limitation of network API assuming that
   network type being a good characterization of network quality
   ... We have reasonable info on iOS
   ... would be useful to get similar data on Android and Windows
   Phone

   bryan: there was a discussion a while back in DAP about taking
   a different approach
   ... which I intend to bring back in this thread
   ... an app could indicate what it's OK with: I'm OK with
   delayed transaction to benefit from newly available bearers
   ... another approach: if you have a shared connection among
   several apps with aggregate transport
   ... this might address a number of the things that app
   developers might need
   ... somewhat different approach: not obtaining info, but
   expressing intent
   ... I'll try to summarize it for the current discussion

   schuki: hopefully this can be integrated in the current use
   cases and requirements of the doc

   marcos: ideally, you would find existing examples of apps
   taking this approach
   ... at the bare minimum, Web apps should be able to catch up
   with native

   <bryan> as a second note, the approach Marcos is taking re
   focusing what techniques are actually using today, is very good

   marcos: examples that support use cases on some platform are
   important

   <bryan> the use cases / approaches I am speaking of are not
   necessarily common today, just new ideas that could help
   optimize network use

Offline Task Force

   <Zakim> bryan, you wanted to menion I've been watching the
   discussion, and have not chimed in yet with the different
   approach discussed on the DAP list a while back, i.e. letting
   the app

   <schuki>
   [20]https://github.com/w3c-webmob/offline/tree/gh-pages

     [20] https://github.com/w3c-webmob/offline/tree/gh-pages

   Schuki: I have uploaded a light structured document on the
   offline topic
   ... In its current state, there is a little of scope creep
   going on here
   ... lots of things could be covered
   ... this is first and foremost a way to get people to start
   contributing

   <schuki> [21]http://w3c-webmob.github.io/offline/

     [21] http://w3c-webmob.github.io/offline/

   schuki: help from everywhere would be welcome
   ... esp. pull requests

   <schuki> [22]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7sRMg0f5Hk

     [22] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7sRMg0f5Hk

   schuki: you can also raise issues to help orient the document
   ... I want to add stuff from Jake Archibald's recent talk on
   offline
   ... the document covers current situation, existing gaps, and
   upcoming solutions
   ... some bits about privacy and security
   ... any question on this?

   marcos: I'm worried that we would duplicate what has been done
   in the ServiceWorker explainer
   ... I'm wondering if we should take the reference
   implementation from Mozilla

   <bryan> marcos, are you talking about
   [23]https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/blob/master/ex
   plainer.md ?

     [23]
https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/blob/master/explainer.md

   marcos: and focus this document around experience gathered in
   implementing various use cases as already identified
   ... as a way to gather feedback on using the API

   schuki: great idea, in light of this upcoming release from
   Mozilla
   ... so we would refer back to the explainer doc

   <marcosc>
   [24]https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Try&rev=db542e5dc66b

     [24] https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Try&rev=db542e5dc66b

   schuki: and evolve this toward building experience feedback

   <bryan> Re the explainer "handle all resource requests for an
   application" does not actually mean that all server functions
   are emulatable, offline, using service workers.

   <bryan> Service workers appears to me to be an interesting but
   as-yet-unverified solution to all offline use cases.

   marcos: on the right hand side
   [25]https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Try&rev=db542e5dc66b you can
   find various build labels
   ... these are service worker builds in Firefox nightly
   ... I haven't managed to get them to work yet, but I'll try
   again
   ... download the build by clicking on the "B" matching your
   platform
   ... and then click on move to build dir

     [25] https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Try&rev=db542e5dc66b

   bryan: android 2.2 means 2.2+?

   marcos: not sure, given there is also a 4.2 build

   <marcosc> Nikhil Marathe

   marcos: the guy working on this is happy to work with us and to
   get feedback

   <bryan> 4.2 for x86 not arm

   marcos: he's giving a talk today on this

   <bryan> but we'll check it out - when is the FFOS patch coming
   out?

Permissions Task Force

   <schuki>
   [26]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work#TASK_FORCE:_Permissions

     [26] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work#TASK_FORCE:_Permissions

   Schuki: there are a number of discussions on this topic across
   task forces
   ... it came up in installable, in offline

   <schuki> dom: my current plan is to document the issues that
   have been discussed so far

   <schuki> ... then highlight the inconsistencies so far

   <schuki> ... and then to enlist the TAG's help in driving the
   topic in the task force

   <bryan> permissions is probably related to what I mentioned
   earlier, the accepted permissions is something the UI will
   enable, and needs to be conveyed to the user in some effective
   way, with either granular or total opt-in/out

   <schuki> ... dka has invited me to talk in the TAG meeting

   <schuki> dom: we'll work out together the next best steps

   schuki: at TPAC, one of the best messages out of the TAG was:
   "we're here to help you, come and talk to us"
   ... and we want to do this with permissions topic
   ... I expect Dom will report back after the TAG meeting
   ... which I guess means the task force won't really start
   before that meeting

AOB

   schuki: one of our other task forces is on scrolling

   <schuki>
   [27]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work#TASK_FORCE:_Scrolling

     [27] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work#TASK_FORCE:_Scrolling

   schuki: there has been lots of talk on twitter regarding
   scrolling
   ... I'll keep linking stuff as I find them

   <schuki> [28]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings

     [28] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Meetings

   schuki: Last piece of AOB is about meetings
   ... we've decided to move to a monthly meeting rhythm instead
   of fortnightly
   ... given that work seems to be running smoothly on github
   ... we would like to use teleconference calls for getting
   updates on the task forces
   ... for which a monthly meeting seems to be sufficient
   ... aside of that, marcos and I are always hanging out on IRC
   ... Teleconferences: some people love them, others hate them
   ... if you feel very strongly that this change isn't quite
   right, let us know
   ... we're alternating between 8am and 3pm UTC to accommodate
   Asian vs US participants
   ... again, we welcome feedback on this
   ... these teleconferences will be on task force updates
   ... but task forces should feel free to set up their own
   teleconferences if they feel it's useful
   ... We now have an icalendar feed for our teleconferences to
   import them in your agenda

   <bryan> have a great holiday all!

   schuki: This is our last teleconference this year: happy new
   year to all

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]

Received on Wednesday, 11 December 2013 16:48:58 UTC