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RE: [W3C Web and TV IG] Adaptive streaming MPEG DASH liaison

From: Ali C. Begen (abegen) <abegen@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:22:32 -0700
Message-ID: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540E955BE7@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com>
To: "Gerard Fernando" <gerardmxf@yahoo.co.uk>, <juhani.huttunen@nokia.com>, <watsonm@netflix.com>, <rob.glidden@sbcglobal.net>
Cc: <hj08.lee@lge.com>, <public-web-and-tv@w3.org>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gerard Fernando [mailto:gerardmxf@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 1:01 PM
> To: Ali C. Begen (abegen); juhani.huttunen@nokia.com; watsonm@netflix.com; rob.glidden@sbcglobal.net
> Cc: hj08.lee@lge.com; public-web-and-tv@w3.org
> Subject: Re: [W3C Web and TV IG] Adaptive streaming MPEG DASH liaison
> 
> I totally disagree. No point wasting time asking a "non-pushy" question as MPEG is likely to send back a useless answer.
> Better to ask a blunt question as then you are likely to get a straightforward/clear answer.
> 
> Could it be that some folks are worried by the likely answer from MPEG - which is that DASH (in it's current state with
> normative references to other standards) can't be made RF that easily.

On the contrary I am hopeful that stakeholders will come forward and say they will offer their IPRs in RF basis.

-acbegen 
 
> Gerard
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Ali C. Begen (abegen) <abegen@cisco.com>
> To: juhani.huttunen@nokia.com; watsonm@netflix.com; rob.glidden@sbcglobal.net
> Cc: hj08.lee@lge.com; public-web-and-tv@w3.org
> Sent: Fri, 18 March, 2011 8:15:00
> Subject: RE: [W3C Web and TV IG] Adaptive streaming MPEG DASH liaison
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: public-web-and-tv-request@w3.org [mailto:public-web-and-tv-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of
> > juhani.huttunen@nokia.com
> > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 8:45 AM
> > To: watsonm@netflix.com; rob.glidden@sbcglobal.net
> > Cc: hj08.lee@lge.com; public-web-and-tv@w3.org
> > Subject: RE: [W3C Web and TV IG] Adaptive streaming MPEG DASH liaison
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> >
> >
> > I am supporting Mark’s proposal (attached). That is right to the point of the Royalty Free question and still avoids to be
> > unnecessarily pushy towards MPEG.
> 
> +1. Being pushy will not get us anything useful in the desired time frame.
> 
> -acbegen
> 
> > The letter sent to 3GPP by Web and TV Interest Group chairs is not the best reference to copy as such here because that
> > letter was created without consulting and was not reviewed by the Web and TV Interest Group members before sending to
> > 3GPP.
> >
> >
> >
> > I believe that the more open-minded question in the liaison letter concerning MPEG DASH licensing will lead to the best
> > response without excluding any options.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Juhani
> >
> > ****************************************
> >
> > Juhani Huttunen
> >
> > Senior Solutions Manager
> >
> > Compatibility and Industry Collaboration, NOKIA
> >
> > Address: Keilalahdentie 2-4, 02150 Espoo, FINLAND
> >
> > Mobile: +358 40 581 1138
> >
> > e-mail: juhani.huttunen@nokia.com
> >
> > ****************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: public-web-and-tv-request@w3.org [mailto:public-web-and-tv-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of ext Mark Watson
> > Sent: 18 March, 2011 07:19
> > To: Rob Glidden
> > Cc: ???; public-web-and-tv@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: [W3C Web and TV IG] Adaptive streaming MPEG DASH liaison
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > On Mar 17, 2011, at 8:46 PM, "Rob Glidden" <rob.glidden@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >     Mark:
> >
> >     If the whole standard is RF, RF profile work won't delay anything.
> >
> >
> >
> > It's not an a priori property of the specification. What we do, the options we leave open, discourage or encourage, can
> affect
> > the outcome.
> >
> >
> >
> > I believe that there are companies that may well be able to commit to terms compatible with the W3C policy. But if we
> kick
> > off a formal 'RF profile' process    now it kicks the question way down the road and there will be no early clarity on this
> issue.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not saying that early clarity is certain, but I feel now is exactly the wrong time to give, up as you propose.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If RF profile work is delayed, then assertions (3rd party or other) can await opportune moment
> >
> >
> >
> > Quite the reverse. A formal RF process removes any sense of urgency regarding clarification of terms.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Such happens.  There's never a quick fix for RF, just due diligence on multiple fronts.
> >
> > Original response succinctly conveys W3C's royalty-free policy, which shouldn't budge.
> >
> >
> >
> > The best way to convey the W3C policy is to link to it, perhaps with a quote. I think paraphrase/characterization is
> absolutely
> > the wrong way to convey these things.
> >
> >
> >
> > ...Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > On 3/17/2011 3:49 PM, Mark Watson wrote:
> >
> > Rob,
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't understand what you mean by "And the response doesn't put W3C validating the well-known blocking/quick-fix/FUD
> > tactic of delaying RF profiles until it is too late.".
> >
> >
> >
> > It seems that by jumping immediately into a process for definition in MPEG of an RF profile we completely set ourselves up
> > for delay. Not that I think anyone will be interested in making that process deliberately longer than necessary, but because
> by
> > its nature it won't be fast. It's by no means certain that anyone has essential IPR or that if they do they will expect royalties
> > for it.
> >
> >
> >
> > My proposal was shorter than the original & I think pretty simple and clear. It is more open than your proposal in terms of
> > the options going forward but does not exclude the option you suggest.
> >
> >
> >
> > ...Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 17, 2011, at 3:14 PM, Rob Glidden wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Simple, helpful and appropriate W3C response to the MPEG request to consider DASH profiles:
> >
> > "We would like to draw your attention particularly to DASH’s profiles defined in DIS and would welcome W3C to provide its
> > needs and suggestions to improve them to better fit W3C’s needs."
> >
> > Is the same that was sent to 3GPP:
> >
> > "We would very much appreciate if you could inform us of the current status of the specification of DASH and the possibility
> > to work together on a royalty free profile of the specification for potential integration of DASH as adaptive streaming
> > mechanism for audio and video in HTML. "
> >
> > An RF profile might not have to fully unring the already-wrung RAND bell.  And the response doesn't put W3C validating the
> > well-known blocking/quick-fix/FUD tactic of delaying RF profiles until it is too late.
> >
> > The original 3GPP text is fine, a short liaison response is not a good venue for more complexity right now.
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> > On 3/17/2011 7:57 AM, Mark Watson wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rob,
> >
> >
> >
> > At the workshop I suggested that we should not immediately go down the road of requesting a "RF profile". That view
> > seemed to have general support.
> >
> >
> >
> > Requesting an "RF profile" implies starting a new process in MPEG which could not be complete for some time. It
> > immediately excludes the possibility that the specification could be used by W3C as is.
> >
> >
> >
> > What I proposed in my text is significantly different from asking MPEG simply to follow their existing process. I suggested
> to
> > "request MPEG member companies to make clear whether and under what terms the specification would be suitable for
> > adoption by W3C, given the above policy."
> >
> >
> >
> > i.e. to explicitly ask them to look at the W3C policy and state whether the terms they offer could be compatible with that. It
> is
> > possible that companies are able to offer terms which allow the goals of that policy to be met but which are different from
> > ticking the "Option 1" box. We should at least allow that possibility to be explored, before jumping to a formal RF process in
> > MPEG.
> >
> >
> >
> > ...Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 16, 2011, at 11:46 AM, Rob Glidden wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I think the previous version of paragraph 3, which asks specifically about working on a royalty-free profile, is more on point.
> >
> > MPEG members are already under obligations to disclose patents and state whether they will license as RAND or RF.  The
> > latest publicly posted call for patents including DASH was dated October, 2010 (N11610) and is at "Standards under
> > development for which a call for patent statements is issued <http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/hot_news.htm> ".  W3C just
> > asking MPEG to do what it has already done and will do again anyway and request its members to do what they are already
> > obligated to do may be motivational to someone but is a do-loop.
> >
> > As an exemplar, the MPEG ad hoc group on Type-1 coding has a publicly announced mandate (N11842) of refining Type-1
> > (i.e. royalty free) Requirements and a publicly announced meeting
> > <http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/meetings/daegu11/daegu_ahg.htm>  prior to the next MPEG meeting.
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > On 3/16/2011 8:33 AM, Mark Watson wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Attached (doc & pdf) are some proposed changes, along the lines of my previous comments on the 3GPP letter. Note that
> the
> > "and has the goal..." text that I added regarding the Patent Policy is taken from the Patent Policy itself: I think it is always
> best
> > with legal aspects like this just to quote, rather than paraphrase or characterize: the legal text is usually worded the way it
> is
> > for good reasons.
> >
> > I didn't fully understand the fourth paragraph, or why it would be of interest to MPEG, so I suggest to delete it. But since I
> > didn't fully understand it I may have missed the intent.
> >
> > ...Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 15, 2011, at 6:56 PM, ì´í˜„재 wrote:
> >
> >
> >     > Dear IG members,
> >     >
> >     > As we shared our common interest of single solution necessity of adaptive streaming on the browser last Berlin. We
> > sent liaison letter to 3GPP right after Berlin. We will send same context to MPEG DASH scheduled to next week.
> >     > I drafted from 3GPP letter and added reply to MPEG DASH intention. The tone/content of letter is intentionally
> > adjusted mild for initiating discussion and get initial feedback.
> >     >
> >     > The recipient of this letter will be MPEG convener Leonardo because liaison letter is sent from him. CCed to Iraj
> > DASH chair.
> >     > The sender of this letter will be W3C Web and TV IG chairs on behave of W3C Web and TV IG members. Even
> > though the recipient of the letter was W3C.
> >     >
> >     > Please feel free to comment on the draft by this weekend. Sorry for the hurried update.
> >     >
> >     > Best regards,
> >     > HJ
> >     > ---------------
> >     > Dear Mr. Convener and DASH experts,
> >     >
> >     > The W3C has recently launched a Web and TV Interest Group, set to identify requirements and potential solutions to
> > ensure that the Web will function well with TV.
> >     >
> >     > During the second W3C Web and TV workshop, held in Berlin on 8-9 February 2011, it came to our attention that
> > many participants of the workshop are interested in getting single solution of adaptive streaming on the browser. One of
> the
> > potential possibilities is DASH. As a result, Web and TV Interest Group(IG) co-chairs would like to convey this interest from
> > workshop participants and IG members to MPEG DASH experts, and to inquire about the licensing status of DASH. W3C has
> a
> > strict royalty-free patent policy on the technologies that get adopted as core Web technologies.
> >     >
> >     > We would very much appreciate if you could inform us of the current status of the specification of DASH and the
> > possibility to work together on a royalty free profile of the specification for potential integration of DASH as adaptive
> > streaming mechanism for audio and video in HTML.
> >     >
> >     > As we see MPEG DASH is general enabler architectural framework for a starting point. Adaptive streaming for Web
> > and TV specific discussion (for example, profiling from DASH, when DASH is chosen as baseline) would better be placed in
> the
> > special working group from Web and TV activity.
> >     >
> >     > MPEG DASH experts willing to discuss the topic with participants of the Web and TV Interest Group may use the
> > public public-web-and-tv@w3.org mailing-list, whose archives are publicly available at:
> >     >  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/

> >     >
> >     > Companies and individuals willing to know more about W3C and W3C process may get in touch with Francois
> > Daoust < <mailto:fd@w3.org> fd@w3.org> and Kazuyuki Ashimura < <mailto:kaz@w3.org> kaz@w3.org>, W3C staff
> contacts
> > for the Web and TV Interest Group.
> >     >
> >     > Best regards,
> >     >
> >     > Yosuke, Giuseppe, Mashahito, HJ (chairs of W3C Web and TV IG)
> >     > On behalf of the W3C Web and TV IG members.
> >     >
> >     > ---------------
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 

Received on Friday, 18 March 2011 17:23:33 UTC

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