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Re: Looking at SC 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation with "UI Context"

From: Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:50:20 +0200
To: Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com>
Cc: public-wcag2ict-tf@w3.org
Message-id: <1177813C-26E4-499D-9BE6-A4C9FB72AF3F@trace.wisc.edu>
Hi Peter
 - yep  you were right - I had my SC numbers switched.   I fixed my comments now to fit this one. 

new comments marked   
GV2:  

On Jul 13, 2012, at 4:14 AM, Peter Korn wrote:

> Hi Gregg,
> 
>>> <PK> Hi gang,
>>> 
>>> SC 3.2.3 was not one we reached consensus on, nor have we had much discussion about it.
>>> 
>>> My thoughts on that can be found at the Applying UI Context page in the seventh row, but to facilitate discussion, I reiterate them here.
>>> 
>>> The software portion of the UIC Proposal is:
>>> This applies to software aspects of products directly as written and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG (above) with the word “user interface context” substituted for Web Page and "software program" substituted for "Set of Web Pages".
>>> I don't think this SC really make sense in software.
>> 
>> GV: I don't follow you here.   It makes lots of sense to me.   This says that if you have two controls that do the same thing that they should be named consistently.     It is always done with good design. (But then many of the SC would be met with good design).   The purpose is to avoid               bad design.  
> 
> PK: The text of the SC is:
> Success Criteria 3.2.3: Navigational mechanisms that are repeated on multiple Web pages within a set of Web pages occur in the same relative order each time they are repeated, unless a change is initiated by the user. (Level AA)
> 
> I don't read that as "controls that DO the same thing should be NAMED consistently", I read it as (a) only applying to navigational mechanisms, and (b) speaking to their relative order on the screen (or web page).

GV2:  you are correct.  I crossed my wires on the access provisions.   This is just about order.   3.2.4 is about naming. 
> 
> I very much like your reading, but I see your reading as doing exactly what I argue for this (and a few other) SC: going back to Understanding and Intent and apply the purpose to software rather than a straight language substitution.  The straight language substitution (abbreviated) reads:
> 
> Success Criteria 3.2.3: Navigational mechanisms that are repeated on [user interface contexts] within a [software application] occur in the same relative order each time they are repeated, unless a change is initiated by the user. (Level AA) 
GV2:  yes - and it works very well here.  Clear and correct. 

If people just think of  UI Context as  "everything they see when using an app (if windows aren't overlapping) "  then they have a good picture of what UIC is.  

> So if I have things like "next" and "previous" buttons that appear in multiple modal dialog boxes, they must appear in the same relative order (e.g. next on the lower right, previous on the lower left).  If we say that "Cancel" is a navigation mechanism, then this might require that Cancel and perhaps OK must likewise appear in the same relative locations.

GV2:  Careful not to change the words.   It says "order" not location.    And yes this is exactly what it means.    And if you swapped OK and Cancel in order on a  dialog box I would expect that there would be many people who would click the wrong one all the time. 

> 
> But I don't see how this says that the printer icon/button must always be named "Print" if it appears in multiple modal dialog boxes.  Or really anything about naming.  This seems to be only about layout.

GV2:  Correct. as I mentioned above I crossed wires.  

So lets just revisit with this focused on ORDER.  So I repaired my comments below  

> 
>> 
>>>   I find it to be a lot like Bypass Blocks.  It is either generally automatically satisfied
>> 
>> GV:  how would it be automatically satisfied.   There is nothing automatic that I can see about the order  buttons or controls are presented. 
>> 
>>> (and so of little added value),
>> 
>> GV:  based on what?   This can be very confusing cognitively to have a list of commands that keeps being reordered. 
>> 
>>> or it can be looked at based on Intent and Understanding, and applied more thoughtfully to software (e.g. for cognitive disabilities, some variant of "things that look the same should behave the same, things that behave differently should look different").
>> 
>> GV:  What do you mean "applied more thoughtfully".    Do you mean write a new SC?    
>> Isn't what you propose essentially what this SC says already? 
> 
> PK: I mean moving beyond "relative order layout" into exactly your first paragraph above in this e-mail: consistent naming and use of controls - beyond simply position.

GV2:  yes - well we can't re-write this SC and that topic is handled in another SC anyway (SC 3.2.4)

> 
>> 
>>>   I think the right thing to do is go back to WCAG and see if we have their blessing to either say this doesn't really apply, or to develop something more fitting and appropriate to software.
>> 
>> GV: Again - the WCAG has no authority to do either of these - so it cannot grant that authority to the task force.   I hate to see us continually not working on language we can use -- instead of trying to rewrite WCAG or get permission to write new SC or cut SC. 
>> 
>> There are examples in the previous items as to how to handle things that are a problem _--- by pointing out the problem.
>> 
>> I don't see any problem with this one though. 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Peter
> -- 
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Received on Friday, 13 July 2012 08:51:03 GMT

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