Re: EvalTF discussion 5.5

TF:

I have been reading the email discussions with avid interest and very
little ability to add anything valuable yet.  My point of view seems to be
very different from most in the group, as my job is to meet and maintain
this conformance at a large organization. I'm learning quite a bit from all
of you.

I've been following this particular topic with a keen interest in seeing
what a "margin of error" would be defined as, in part because our company
is about to launch into a major site consolidation and I'm curious about
how to scale our current testing process.  Until now, we've actually been
testing every page we can with both automated scans and manual audits.

>From a purely layman's point of view, the only confidence I have when
testing medium to large volume websites (greater than 500 pages) is by
doing the following:

1. automated scans of every single page
2. manual accessibility testing modeled after the user acceptance test
cases to test the critical user paths as defined by the business
3. manual accessibility testing of each page type and/or widget or
component (templates, in other words)

So, I felt the need to chime in on "margin of error," because it worries me
when we start quantifying a percentage of error. I see this from the
corporate side.  Putting a percentage on this may actually undermine the
overall success of accessibility specialists working inside of a large
organization.  We may find ourselves with more technical compliance and
less overall usability for disabled users. As for me, I need to be able to
point to an evaluation technique that encompasses more than a codified
measurement in my assessment of a website's conformance.  Ideally, the
 really needs to account for user experience.  It's one of the fail safes
in the current 508 Compliance requirements that I've taken shelter in,
actually, as outdated as they are - functional performance criteria.

I really appreciate the work everyone in this group is doing, as I will
likely be a direct recipient of the outcome as I put these concepts into
action over the course of their creation.  Consider me the intern who will
try to see if these dogs will hunt. :)


Much appreciated,
Elle


On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Vivienne CONWAY <v.conway@ecu.edu.au>wrote:

> Hi Alistair and TF
> You have raised an interesting point here.  I'm thinking I like your idea
> better than the 'margin of error' concept.  It removes the obstacle of
> trying to decide what constitutes an 'incidental' or 'systemic' error.  I
> thnk it's obvious that most of the time a website with systemic errors
> would not pass, unless it was sytem-wide and didn't pose any serious
> problem ie.a colour contrast that's .1 off the 4.5:1 rule.  I think I like
> the statement idea coupled with a comprehensive scope statement of what was
> tested.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Vivienne L. Conway, B.IT(Hons)
> PhD Candidate & Sessional Lecturer, Edith Cowan University, Perth, W.A.
> Director, Web Key IT Pty Ltd.
> v.conway@ecu.edu.au
> v.conway@webkeyit.com
> Mob: 0415 383 673
>
> This email is confidential and intended only for the use of the individual
> or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
> notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is
> strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please
> notify me immediately by return email or telephone and destroy the original
> message.
> ________________________________________
> From: Alistair Garrison [alistair.j.garrison@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2012 6:41 PM
> To: Shadi Abou-Zahra; Eval TF; Eric Velleman
> Subject: Re: EvalTF discussion 5.5
>
> Hi,
>
> The issue of "margin of error" relates to the size of the website and the
> number of pages actually being assessed.  I'm not so keen on the "5%
> incidental error" idea.
>
> If you assess 1 page from a 1 page website there should be no margin of
> error.
> If you assess 10 pages from a 10 page website there should be no margin of
> error.
> If you assess 10 pages from a 100 page website you will have certainty for
> 10 pages and uncertainty for 90.
>
> Instead of exploring the statistical complexities involved in trying to
> accurately define how uncertain we are (which could take a great deal of
> precious time) - could we not just introduce a simple disclaimer e.g.
>
> "The evaluator has tried their hardest to minimise the margin for error by
> actively looking for all content relevant to each technique being assessed
> which might have caused a fail."
>
> Food for thought...
>
> Alistair
>
> On 12 Jan 2012, at 10:04, Shadi Abou-Zahra wrote:
>
> > Hi Martijn, All,
> >
> > Good points but it sounds like we are speaking more of impact of errors
> rather than of the incidental vs systemic aspects of them. Intuitively one
> could say that an error that causes a barrier to completing a task on the
> web page needs to be weighted more significantly than an error that does
> not have the same impact, but it will be difficult to define what a "task"
> is. Maybe listing specific situations as you did is the way to go but I
> think we should not mix the two aspects together.
> >
> > Best,
> >  Shadi
> >
> >
> > On 12.1.2012 09:41, Martijn Houtepen wrote:
> >> Hi Eric, TF
> >>
> >> I would like to make a small expansion to your list, as follows:
> >>
> >> Errors can be incidental unless:
> >>
> >> a) it is a navigation element
> >> b) the alt-attribute is necessary for the understanding of the
> information / interaction / essential to a key scenario or complete path
> >> c) other impact related thoughts?
> >> d) there is an alternative
> >>
> >> So an unlabeled (but required) field in a form (part of some key
> scenario) will be a systemic error.
> >>
> >> Martijn
> >>
> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> >> Van: Velleman, Eric [mailto:evelleman@bartimeus.nl]
> >> Verzonden: woensdag 11 januari 2012 15:01
> >> Aan: Boland Jr, Frederick E.
> >> CC: Eval TF
> >> Onderwerp: RE: EvalTF discussion 5.5
> >>
> >> Hi Frederick,
> >>
> >> Yes agree, but I think we can have both discussions at the same time.
> So:
> >> 1. How do we define an error margin to cover non-structuraal errors?
> >> 2. How can an evaluator determine the impact of an error?
> >>
> >> I could imagine we make a distinction between structural and incidental
> errors. The 1 failed alt-attribute out of 100 correct ones would be
> incidental... unless (and there comes the impact):
> >>   a) it is a navigation element
> >>   b) the alt-attribute is necessary for the understanding of the
> information / interaction
> >>   c) other impact related thoughts?
> >>   d) there is an alternative
> >>
> >> We could set the acceptance rate for incidental errors. Example: the
> site would be totally conformant, but with statement that for
> alt-attributes, there are 5% incidental fails.
> >> This also directly relates to conformance in WCAG2.0 specifically
> section 5 Non-interference.
> >>
> >> Eric
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> Van: Boland Jr, Frederick E. [frederick.boland@nist.gov]
> >> Verzonden: woensdag 11 januari 2012 14:32
> >> Aan: Velleman, Eric
> >> CC: Eval TF
> >> Onderwerp: RE: EvalTF discussion 5.5
> >>
> >> As a preamble to this discussion, I think we need to define more
> precisely ("measure"?) what an "impact" would be (for example, impact to
> whom/what and what specifically are the consequences of said impact)?
> >>
> >> Thanks Tim
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Velleman, Eric [mailto:evelleman@bartimeus.nl]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:15 AM
> >> To: public-wai-evaltf@w3.org
> >> Subject: EvalTF discussion 5.5
> >>
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> I would very much like to discuss section 5.5 about Error Margin.
> >>
> >> If one out of 1 million images on a website fails the alt-attribute
> this could mean that the complete websites scores a fail even if the
> "impact" would be very low. How do we define an error margin to cover these
> non-structural errors that have a low impact. This is already partly
> covered inside WCAG 2.0. But input and discussion would be great.
> >>
> >> Please share your thoughts.
> >> Kindest regards,
> >>
> >> Eric
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Shadi Abou-Zahra - http://www.w3.org/People/shadi/
> > Activity Lead, W3C/WAI International Program Office
> > Evaluation and Repair Tools Working Group (ERT WG)
> > Research and Development Working Group (RDWG)
> >
>
> This e-mail is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient you
> must not disclose or use the information contained within. If you have
> received it in error please return it to the sender via reply e-mail and
> delete any record of it from your system. The information contained within
> is not the opinion of Edith Cowan University in general and the University
> accepts no liability for the accuracy of the information provided.
>
> CRICOS IPC 00279B
>
>


-- 
If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather wood,
divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast
and endless sea.
- Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince