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RE: Discussion: dynamic pages

From: Vivienne CONWAY <v.conway@ecu.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:22:07 +0800
To: Detlev Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>, Eval TF <public-wai-evaltf@w3.org>
Message-ID: <8AFA77741B11DB47B24131F1E38227A9BBD4758966@XCHG-MS1.ads.ecu.edu.au>
Hi all
As Detlev rightly pointed out, there are instances where an evaluation of a website occurs without either the knowledge of consent of the site owner.  In my research, I am auditing a selection of websites on a regular basis to see if they are becoming more accessible over time - it is a part of my PhD research.  All of the website owners were notified, but many chose not to participate at all.  It doesn't mean that I'm not going to audit their website.  The sampling I chose was the same for each website (or as closely as possible).  None of the websites required a login as I'm only looking at publically available material.  I'm not using any use cases, as I'm auditing a selection of web pages against the WCAG 2.0 criteria.  However these same websites will be assessed by a user group who be following a scenario or script and scoring the website accordingly.

I think some people will want to assess a website without the owner's participation - say before they lodge a complaint, to compare it to their own website for a competitive product, general market research, research into designing their own website etc.  So, we can't always assume that the evaluator will have the owner's cooperation.


Regards

Vivienne L. Conway, B.IT(Hons), MACS CT
PhD Candidate & Sessional Lecturer, Edith Cowan University, Perth, W.A.
Director, Web Key IT Pty Ltd.
v.conway@ecu.edu.au
v.conway@webkeyit.com
Mob: 0415 383 673

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________________________________________
From: Detlev Fischer [detlev.fischer@testkreis.de]
Sent: Saturday, 7 April 2012 3:22 AM
To: Eval TF
Subject: Re: Discussion: dynamic pages

Hi Elle, Peter & list,

I can think of scenarios where an evaluation proceeds without
knowledge and consent of the site owner - for example where user
advocates want some evidence to shame providers into making more
efforts to be accessible. That's why we tested Facebook last summer.

Here, the use context clearly suggested some important use cases which
we picked accordingly: registering, changing profiles, and 'finding
friends'. Obviously, a lot more could have been picked but you have to
draw the line somewhere. It was tricky though to document all the
dynamic states, particularly as some cannot easily be rolled back and
require logout/ new login. So it was quite a difficult test (three in
all, actually, for the aforementioned use cases). I think
unfortunately it will never be easy to evaluate such complex processes
with generated states...the question for us is what can be tied down
in the evaluation methodology and what needs to be adapted/decided per
case.

Regards,
Detlev
On 6 Apr 2012, at 20:26, Elle wrote:

> Peter:
>
> With regards to the list of URLs not being sufficient, that's
> exactly why I suggested use cases and I believe why we're having
> this discussion.  I was merely pointing out that there is some
> amount of discussion and requirements gathering that any auditor
> must do to effectively test a website.  During that discussion, any
> user experience use cases could be gathered to account for each user
> profile and scenario.  We won't need all use cases, but those that
> account for UX sign-off would help create accessibility test cases.
> We've also used wireframes, but that's really dependent on how
> detailed the interactive documentation is on them.
>
>
> Regards,
> Elle
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com>
> wrote:
> Elle,
>
> A full list of URLs won't be enough in all cases.  Many web
> applications use a single URL/URI, yet have a large number of
> different "screens" that they display behind that single URL/URI
> (using cookies, etc. to track which "screen" to generate).  Others
> dynamically generate the URLs/URIs, again making it impossible to
> provide a list in advance.
>
> Regarding use cases, there is another wrinkle there...  Large web
> applications have many use cases - sets of them in some cases (think
> of a CRM application, or an accounting package).  Any given customer
> may only be using a small subset of those use cases.  Such a
> customer may not care whether some portions of the product they
> aren't using aren't accessible...
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
>
>
> On 4/6/2012 10:17 AM, Elle wrote:
>>
>> Peter:
>>
>> I assume that at the very least, an auditor would need a full list
>> of the URLs from the website owner to perform an accurate
>> evaluation.  In keeping with that need to communicate with the
>> website owner, requesting use cases in addition to URLs seemed
>> reasonable.  The question I have (after thinking through this) is,
>> what recommendations would we give auditors for testing dynamic
>> pages that don't have any use cases available?  Not every company
>> keeps that kind of rigor with their development and requirements
>> tracking.
>>
>>
>> ~Elle
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Peter Korn <peter.korn@oracle.com>
>> wrote:
>> Hi Elle,
>>
>> Just curious - are we presuming that all website evaluations will
>> be done with the knowledge & cooperation of the website owner /
>> developer?  Without that, how could the evaluator determine what
>> the full set of use cases is?
>>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> On 4/6/2012 6:33 AM, Elle wrote:
>>>
>>> Eric:
>>>
>>> I still believe that we can just model accessibility audits after
>>> the business use cases that are provided for a web application's
>>> launch.  In my experience, all of these dynamic scenarios are
>>> covered when testing web pages for success in meeting functional
>>> requirements; each profile has a use case.  All we need to do is
>>> write the accessibility audits for each use case.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Elle
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Velleman, Eric <evelleman@bartimeus.nl
>>> >                        wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I would appreciate your input on what to do with audits of dynamic
>>> pages that do not just change data, but also provide different
>>> outputs, layout, alt-tags etc. Could we cover this by describing
>>> the exact use cases that we followed? But how do you evaluate a
>>> page that does this if you are an evaluator with a different
>>> profile than the use case that has                          been
>>> chosen?
>>>
>>> Kindest regards,
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather
>>> wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to
>>> yearn for the vast and endless sea.
>>> - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
>>>
>>
>> --
>> <mime-attachment.gif>
>> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
>> Phone: +1 650 506 9522
>> Oracle Corporate Architecture Group
>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
>> Note: @sun.com e-mail addresses will shortly no longer function; be
>> sure to use: peter.korn@oracle.com to reach me <mime-
>> attachment.gif> Oracle is committed to developing practices and
>> products that help protect the environment
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather
>> wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to
>> yearn for the vast and endless sea.
>> - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
>>
>
> --
> <oracle_sig_logo.gif>
> Peter Korn | Accessibility Principal
> Phone: +1 650 506 9522
> Oracle Corporate Architecture Group
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
> Note: @sun.com e-mail addresses will shortly no longer function; be
> sure to use: peter.korn@oracle.com to reach me <green-for-email-
> sig_0.gif> Oracle is committed to developing practices and products
> that help protect the environment
>
>
>
> --
> If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather
> wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn
> for the vast and endless sea.
> - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
>

--
Detlev Fischer
testkreis - das Accessibility-Team von feld.wald.wiese
c/o feld.wald.wiese
Borselstraße 3-7 (im Hof)
22765 Hamburg

Tel   +49 (0)40 439 10 68-3
Mobil +49 (0)1577 170 73 84
Fax   +49 (0)40 439 10 68-5

http://www.testkreis.de
Beratung, Tests und Schulungen für barrierefreie Websites

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Received on Tuesday, 10 April 2012 13:22:55 GMT

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