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Re: "website" vs "web content" vs other (was Re: Short name for Methodology)

From: Detlev Fischer <fischer@dias.de>
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:24:12 +0200
Message-ID: <4E9D45BC.7040307@dias.de>
To: public-wai-evaltf@w3.org
Am 18.10.2011 09:14, schrieb Shadi Abou-Zahra:
> Hi Detlev,
>
> On 18.10.2011 08:39, Detlev Fischer wrote:
>> Hi Shady,
>>
>> I am still not sure how we can clearly delineate the difference between
>> the wider term "web content" (as in WCAG) and "website" as explained on
>> - <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/methodology-reqs/#website>
>
> Agree, this is a challenge that we need to address.
>
>
>> Maybe we should clearly state in the definition whether "website"
>> includes any content offered via plugin technologies like Flash?
>
> As I understand it, "website" includes any web content as defined by
> WCAG 2.0, which would include Flash and other web technologies.
>
>
>> Thisa has practical implications. For example, if Flash would be
>> included, the testing procedure would then either have to be *very*
>> general (actually more general than in many tests of techniques, which
>> do reference tools like aDesigner2) or fork depending on HTML, FLASH,
>> etc.
>
> I'm not sure I understand this rationale. There are already WCAG 2.0
> Techniques for Flash. Maybe not yet a complete set but enough to show
> how the Methodology would utilize existing WCAG 2.0 Techniques.

I guess the procedure would either reference, as planned, tests in 
individual techniques (HTML, CSS, Flash, etc) which means it would be 
very bitty and carry a lot of redundancy, or it would offer a practical 
synthesis from a hands-on point of view and thereby, add practical value 
for testers. When checking for alt texts, for example, there will be 
many applicable techniques which are often mutually exclusive. If I use 
"list images" in WAT to trundle through the images of a web page and 
check whether alt texts descripe content (unlinked images), indicate 
link target or purpose (linked images) or are empty (decorative images), 
the economic procedure is to synthesize the assessment as you go through 
the list. No one would *actually* step through the atomic tests again 
and again. It would also be disruptive from an operational perspective. 
You want to have *one* page which tells you what to do and how to assess 
the instances you find (for some complex SC like 1.1.1 and 1.3.1, it may 
be several, of course).

So back to my original rationale:

Either the test procedure is generic and says "Check all images opn the 
page to verify that the alt attribute is present and appropriate" which 
hardly goes beyond the text of WCAG Guideline 1.1. and is therefore of 
questionable merit, or it would present some sort of decision tree which 
recommends a sequence or path through options and thereby synthesizes 
the atomic tests necessary to check for conformance to a particular SC.

Now, if we deal with HTML/CSS/JS content but also FLASH content, this 
might then apear as a choice at some point the decision tree: you check 
if FLASH is used, fork to applicable Flash tests (or a  procedure 
syntheizing tests), the return to check HTML (just as an example). It 
just makes an already complex HTML-oriented test procedure still more 
complex.

Just as an aside: in BIT-Test we deal with this problem in a 'silo 
approach': we (will) offer separate WCAG-based tests for different media 
(HTML/CSS/JS, PDF, maybe some day Flash).

I personally think (and I have said this before) that a test procedure 
that integrates atomic tests and offers advice regarding the success of 
failure of instances checked is the actual added value in practical terms.

Detlev
>
> Best,
> Shadi
>
>
>> Regards,
>> Detlev
>>
>> Am 17.10.2011 15:15, schrieb Shadi Abou-Zahra:
>>> Dear Detlev, All,
>>>
>>> On 17.10.2011 10:15, Detlev Fischer wrote:
>>>> I have now fully caught up with the discussion of the term "website"
>>>> and
>>>> I realise it can be (or has been) defined to include web apps etc.
>>>
>>> Correct:
>>> - <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/methodology-reqs/#website>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Still, since the term "website" has been avoided in the title of WCAG
>>>> and also carries connotations of a traditional hierachical site, ist
>>>> seems more congenial to me to use "Web content" instead (even if it
>>>> makes the acronym still thornier).
>>>
>>> It is not about the acronym but rather about the scope of WCAG versus
>>> that of the Methodology. Web content is used to build websites. WCAG
>>> applies to any web content while our Methodology is limited to websites.
>>>
>>> I think we should either use the term "website" to denote static and
>>> dynamic web pages, web applications, intranets, mobile sites, etc, or
>>> come up with another term that applies to websites in their entirety.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Shadi
>>>
>>>
>>>> Detlev
>>>>
>>>> Am 17.10.2011 08:40, schrieb kvotis@iti.gr:
>>>>> Hello everyone
>>>>>
>>>>> i aggree with the following comment of Detlev and this was also my
>>>>> comment
>>>>> to a previous mail. I cannot understand why we are refereeing only to
>>>>> Websites. I think that we need a more general term including also Web
>>>>> applications, Mobile Web applications,etc...
>>>>>
>>>>> regards
>>>>>
>>>>> kostas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> back from holidays, I am trying to catch up with discussions now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not mind WAEM even though I do not think it is particularly easy
>>>>>> to pronounce (other then spelling out double-U - E - A - M).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have some concern regarding the W for "website", as in the current
>>>>>> full title
>>>>>> "Website Accessibility Evaluation Methodology". The "WC" of WCAG
>>>>>> sounds a lot more general than the term "website". This also relates
>>>>>> to the important comments by Aaron Leventhal regarding the scope of
>>>>>> the methodology, tool independence, and the possible need to cover
>>>>>> different web content and UA scenarios.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is what we develop here focused on websites and not on things like
>>>>>> web
>>>>>> apps for mobile UAs? If we want to be as general as WCAG we might
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to change the full name of the methodology and accordingly, the
>>>>>> acronym.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Detlev
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Zitat von "Velleman, Eric"<evelleman@bartimeus.nl>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We decided in the call to discuss the short name in the list. Below
>>>>>>> are some short names from the discussions we had sofar and a
>>>>>>> proposed shortlist of requirements:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Requirements for a short name:
>>>>>>> - It should be short
>>>>>>> - Easy to pronounce
>>>>>>> - Clear to all what it means (selfexplanatory)
>>>>>>> - Be about the methodology
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shortnames (Make your choice or add new ones):
>>>>>>> - SiteAccess
>>>>>>> - WCAG-Method
>>>>>>> - WCAG-EM
>>>>>>> - WAEM (really using the title)
>>>>>>> - WCAG-Check
>>>>>>> - AccessSite
>>>>>>> - WCAG-Site
>>>>>>> - AccessCheck
>>>>>>> - SiteCheck
>>>>>>> - CheckSite
>>>>>>> - WAMBAM
>>>>>>> - WAME
>>>>>>> - MCEWA
>>>>>>> - CEWA
>>>>>>> - CEW2WCAG2
>>>>>>> - UWEM
>>>>>>> - SITE
>>>>>>> - MAWA
>>>>>>> - MDWC
>>>>>>> - EWAMAC
>>>>>>> - EMAWC
>>>>>>> - WEM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kindest regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Detlev Fischer PhD
>>>>>> DIAS GmbH - Daten, Informationssysteme und Analysen im Sozialen
>>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrung: Thomas Lilienthal, Michael Zapp
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Telefon: +49-40-43 18 75-25
>>>>>> Mobile: +49-157 7-170 73 84
>>>>>> Fax: +49-40-43 18 75-19
>>>>>> E-Mail: fischer@dias.de
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anschrift: Schulterblatt 36, D-20357 Hamburg
>>>>>> Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 58 167
>>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Thomas Lilienthal, Michael Zapp
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Detlev Fischer PhD
DIAS GmbH - Daten, Informationssysteme und Analysen im Sozialen
Geschäftsführung: Thomas Lilienthal, Michael Zapp

Telefon: +49-40-43 18 75-25
Mobile: +49-157 7-170 73 84
Fax: +49-40-43 18 75-19
E-Mail: fischer@dias.de

Anschrift: Schulterblatt 36, D-20357 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 58 167
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Lilienthal, Michael Zapp
---------------------------------------------------------------
Received on Tuesday, 18 October 2011 09:24:36 GMT

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