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[Fwd: Betr.: Re: Summary from today's EOWG discussion]

From: Shadi Abou-Zahra <shadi@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:45:25 +0200
Message-ID: <4ACBBA75.1040008@w3.org>
To: BAD TF <public-wai-eo-badtf@w3.org>
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Betr.: Re: Summary from today's EOWG discussion
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:53:03 +0200
From: Wilco Fiers <wfiers@bartimeus.nl>
To: <jewett@csulb.edu>, <shadi@w3.org>, <w3c@yatil.de>
CC: <public-wai-eo-badtf@w3.org>

Hi everyone,

I think this has been quite valuable feedback from EOWG. So I agree with 
Shadi that we should have a serious look at them. I however do agree 
with Eric that the project has taken much more time then was initially 
planned. (I wasn't even involved when the original deadline was expired.)

I fully agree with Eric's comments. But I would like to add a few of my own.

# Evaluation report
  - principles should be page headings (separate table into 4 tables)
This would take a pretty big rethink of the way the script runs.

  - change "Show full description" to "show full success criteria"
Easy change, but I'm shouldn't it then be 'success criterion'?

  - use fractions (X/Y) rather than pass/fail for guidelines level
I don't agree. The result column shows the result of that row, and not a 
summary of a lower levels. There's also a good argument for displaying 
the level of conformance that was passed for that guideline. We chose to 
keep the table as simple as possible. Also this keeps the table 
self-explaining on any level that is viewed.

  - for consideration/editors discretion:
   -- add indentation before the GL/SC numbers in the "#" column
I feel this is the least important column of the table and should 
therefore take up as little space as possible. So I would be against this.

   -- n/a should be in lower case and grayed (to be easier to skim)
I think this is a good point

   -- use progressive color shading to better indicate the levels [2]
We had this for a while in an early version and it didn't seem like 
anyone in the TF liked this.

Also I was quite hoping for this project to come to a close pretty soon. 
Since august I've started a new course which is taking up a huge chunk 
of my time. I can't really afford to go through another few weeks of 
upgrading and reevaluating these tables. The script is well documented 
so it shouldn't be too difficult for anyone else to pick it up. However 
if possible I would like to see the project through to the end.

Talk to you all tomorrow.


>>> Shadi Abou-Zahra <shadi@w3.org> 04-10-09 20:54 >>>
Hi Eric, Tom, and all,

First of all thank you all for your hard work and contributions so far.
We've come a long way from the previous version and can be proud of the
new version of the Demo. EOWG and WAI-AGE TF have repeatedly expressed
their appreciation and their support for our work so far.

We should remember to separate two issues here:

#1. We should consider the feedback from EOWG as suggestions to improve
the value of your contributions and hard work. They are reactions that
may be shared by the public. We should think constructively if and how
we want to address these comments from EOWG.

#2. Yes, unfortunately the project is significantly delayed. However,
this is also due to the limited availability of each of us during some
point of the project. There have been many missed calls, action items,
and delays from each of us without exceptions.

We are very close to finalizing the project, and it is quite normal for
last minute comments to come in. Please do not let this demotivate or
discourage you. I am confident that we can address them all effectively
given the amount creativity and expertise that we have in the group.

I will respond to some of Eric's comments separately.


Thomas Jewett wrote:
> Eric/Shadi/all,
> I believe that Eric has raised some important issues.
> We've all been placed in a very difficult position;
> unfortunately, I can't think of any inventive ways to
> resolve it.
> Tom
> On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 20:20:42 +0200
>  Eric Eggert <w3c@yatil.de> wrote:
>> Hi Shadi, Group.
>> First: I really appreciate all feedback we get, and some points are
>> valid (as I will show below), but this group was scheduled until
>> December 2008 and is now in its second year. There are people writing
>> whole specs in that time.
>> We archived a lot, and a lot more then we were asked to do, and the
>> group works great together, but most of those suggestions shouldn’t be
>> presented to us a month prior to finish but a month after start.
>>> # Page design and navigation
>>>  - evaluation pages should be in the BAD design (not the WAI design)
>> We don’t have something like that. I said that before. When we
>> developed the Navigation it was singled out. Everything we do now with
>> the overview pages will result in pages that will look out of place
>> anyway.
>>>  - make a "show/hide report" button (like "show/hide annotations")
>> Totally wrong as the report will not be shown inline, so it isn’t
>> shown, it is just linked to. We discussed that already…
>>>  - add W3C/WAI branding to all Demo pages (logos on top-left side)
>> Which logos exactly. Why didn’t we know about that requirement earlier?
>>>  - reflect the current location in the <h1>
>> This was planned anyway, if I recall directly
>>> and in the page title [1]
>> We do that.
>>> # Evaluation report
>>>  - for consideration/editors discretion:
>>>  -- remove indentation (for SC and Techs) in the description column
>>>  -- add indentation before the GL/SC numbers in the "#" column
>> Would that really add any benefit? I don’t think it does.
>>>  -- n/a should be in lower case and grayed (to be easier to skim)
>> “Easier to skim” is subjective, isn’t it? I don’t think it’s
>> necessary, but it won’t hurt.
>>>  -- use progressive color shading to better indicate the levels [2]
>> Don’t think we need that. Colors are too bold in Liams example for my 
>> taste…
>>> [1] consider imitating a browser chrome in the Demo area, to show the 
>>> "Page
>>> Titled" accessibility requirement between before/after versions
>> No, we don’t need this. (I don’t think I have to say that this will
>> confuse people, then you get into the problem which operating system
>> to mimic. And it is a code demo, so we shouldn’t introduce even more
>> elements that have nothing to do with the demo all together. Currently
>> I’m even thinking we should remove everything that is not the actual
>> demo – heading, footers, annotations – as it really, really seem to
>> confuse people. We will not please everybody.)
>> Regards,
>> Eric
>> -- 
>> Eric Eggert
>> Waldfischbacher Straße 20, 66978 Leimen/Pfalz, Deutschland
>> Laudongasse 36/714, 1080 Wien, Österreich
>> http://yatil.de/ | http://snookerblog.de/

Shadi Abou-Zahra - http://www.w3.org/People/shadi/ |
    WAI International Program Office Activity Lead   |
   W3C Evaluation & Repair Tools Working Group Chair |

Shadi Abou-Zahra - http://www.w3.org/People/shadi/ |
   WAI International Program Office Activity Lead   |
  W3C Evaluation & Repair Tools Working Group Chair |
Received on Tuesday, 6 October 2009 21:45:54 UTC

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