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Re: Feedback Before-After Demo

From: Isabelle Motte <isabelle.motte@fundp.ac.be>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:57:53 +0100
To: Anna.Zhuang@nokia.com
Cc: shadi@w3.org, public-wai-age@w3.org
Message-Id: <200810280957.53238.isabelle.motte@fundp.ac.be>

A sexy website is a site that users love after 30 seconds.
I did not mention that sexy websites had to present animations, or medias.
And I do not agree to tell that accessible websites may not present 
animations. 
Well choosen animations may add a lot to the quality of communication. 
Especially in educationnal perspective. 
Having as firts aim to make websites accessible, you also make it weaker for 
common people that are not disabled persons or elderly. I refuse it. 

Colors have to be choosen carefully because every color in every culture has a 
precise signification and color mixture also create some ambiance.
That is actually a job to "paint" interfaces.

I do not want to offend anybody.
That is my opinion, with respect to my experience with my collegues.
It is perhaps not representative. 

Isabelle

Le Monday 27 October 2008 20:58:10 Anna.Zhuang@nokia.com, vous avez écrit :
>  Hello Isabelle,
>
> I have submitted my share of comments to the area of perceptiveness of the
> demo pages but now I would like to give my comments to your view on what is
> a "sexy" website. A sexy website is what you will hate after 30 sec of
> viewing it. It takes too much bandwidth. Majority of people rush to skip
> introductory singing and dancing. Too much of the bright colours and labels
> are a distraction. And all of those sparkles not necessarily render well on
> mobile devices.
>
> All my words are well supported by our mobile device implementation and
> studies where people find it cool to have 3-d animation, transparency and
> transition effects. But after this cool people prefer something less
> catching for eyes and use more basic UI settings.
>
> Anna
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: public-wai-age-request@w3.org
> >[mailto:public-wai-age-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of ext Isabelle Motte
> >Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 4:28 PM
> >To: Shadi Abou-Zahra
> >Cc: public-wai-age@w3.org
> >Subject: Re: Feedback Before-After Demo
> >
> >
> >I will try to make my ideas more clear.
> >
> >A "sexy" website is a website build with a graphic charter
> >where everything as been tought to touch the target public.
> >Colors, icons, banners, illustrations, labels ... have been
> >choosen for the user to feel good.
> >
> >This design goes much further than the blocs positions.
> >You have to think the infographist's job as a painter job : it
> >creates the look of the inteface. He gives an image of the
> >interface that the technical developper has to implement.
> >
> >It is difficult to make academic example "sexy" because they
> >do not have an actual target public. And that is an
> >infographist's job, that is not mine.
> >Academic examples are however interresting for webdeveloppers
> >that need to develop accessible web sites. The exemple you
> >build with the suggestions made seems to be complete. That is
> >a good job.
> >But these won't convince developpers that need to make "sexy"
> >websites and that often see non sexy accessible web sites.
> >Accessible implies "non sexy"
> >in a lot of developpers' mind.
> >
> >In webdevelopment, we are used to inspired our interfaces from
> >existing interfaces that we adapt. Presenting some "sexy"
> >templates should help changing the minds and uses.
> >
> >These days, web developments often imply content management
> >systems (CMS) or other dynamic website systems (wikis, blogs,
> >...). It is become a trend for every CMS to organize an
> >infographist prize for the best interfaces.  Why not to
> >propose some WAI membre to participate the evaluation ?
> >
> >WAI evaluation should also arrive after a "sexy" prize
> >election. Take the 5 sexiest web sites of the year and make a
> >WAI classification ...
> >
> >Actual websites presenting a version "before" and "after"
> >integrating accessibility guidelines should also be presented.
> >Contacs with commercials involved in accessibility
> >developments should help finding such examples.
> >
> >The particularity of websites is that they evolve every day.
> >If a WAI prize is given it is for one web interface at one
> >precise moment. But at least a "frozen" version of the main
> >pages of the site should be given as an inspiration for developpers.
> >
> >
> >You get reason, Shadi, I have no time to organize a prize. But
> >I only want you to know I am not sure the academic examples
> >actually help the WAI to be more accessible ... ;-)
> >
> >
> >Isabelle
> >
> >Le Monday 27 October 2008 14:13:20 Shadi Abou-Zahra, vous avez écrit :
> >> Hi Isabelle,
> >>
> >> Thank you for your feedback. We have looked into thos idea
> >
> >in the past
> >
> >> but it proved to be very difficult for several reasons:
> >>
> >> - who evaluates the Web sites in question?
> >> - how do we guarantee that they do not change?
> >> - how do we maintain such an idea scalable?
> >>
> >> The Demo attempts to provide a selection of realistic examples from
> >> many of the Web sites we encounter. Please let us know if you have
> >> specific suggestions on making the Demo less academic and
> >
> >more usable
> >
> >> for you (or if you volunteer to organize an award and
> >
> >maintain a list
> >
> >> of accessible and best-practice Web sites *wink*).
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>    Shadi
> >>
> >> Isabelle Motte wrote:
> >> > I am a web developper and I am quite reluctant about this
> >
> >"academic"
> >
> >> > example that do not provide an actual content.
> >> >
> >> > Why not to propose a list of "sexy" accessible web sites
> >
> >that could
> >
> >> > inspire the web developpers ? A special honorific prize could even
> >> > be organized ...
> >> >
> >> > Isabelle
> >> >
> >> > Le Friday 10 October 2008 10:38:54 Shadi Abou-Zahra, vous
> >
> >avez écrit :
> >> >> Hi Michael,
> >> >>
> >> >> Thank you for your comments. Many of these are about the
> >
> >coding so
> >
> >> >> let's discuss them when we implement the changes. For
> >
> >now, we need
> >
> >> >> to identify any functional changes to the Demo that would
> >
> >better highlight that WCAG
> >
> >> >>   also improves the user experience for older people.
> >> >>
> >> >> Do you have specific thoughts about the types of accessibility
> >> >> barriers that we should further include in the Demo?
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >>    Shadi
> >> >>
> >> >> Michael Stenitzer wrote:
> >> >>> dear all,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> a bit late my additional comments on the before and
> >
> >after demo (no
> >
> >> >>> claim to be complete):
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/after/index
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * teasers in right column: link the headline, make the
> >
> >whole teaser
> >
> >> >>>   clickable with progressive enhancement techniques, inkl.
> >> >>> hover-effects (CSS,JS)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   rationale:
> >> >>>   - increase clickable areas.
> >> >>>   - make areas clickable that might be expected to be links.
> >> >>>   - indicate clickability with visual effects.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * drop-down nav in the header (quick menu):
> >> >>>   rationale: i don't see any reason for this. it is a
> >
> >mere duplication
> >
> >> >>>   of the main navigation and needs much more fine motor
> >
> >skills (and
> >
> >> >>>   clicks) than ordinary links. it actually hides
> >
> >information instead of
> >
> >> >>>   providing additional link opportunities.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   if you want to show an accessible drop-down-menu make
> >
> >it more useful:
> >> >>>   different links, more links (thats actually the reason
> >
> >why we use
> >
> >> >>>   those items), consider a collapsed UL with progressive
> >
> >enhancement or
> >
> >> >>>   eg. make the quicknav a ordinary list of links and
> >
> >place it somewhere
> >
> >> >>>   else, eg. in the footer like many websites do it nowadays.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/after/info
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * increase / improve use of whitespace
> >> >>>   rationale: distinction of unrelated information. increase
> >> >>> readability.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   eg. around the table in the bottom,
> >> >>>   before and after the headings - some are closer to the previous
> >> >>>   paragraphs than to the next ones.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   the image boxes are positioned in a way that it is
> >
> >visually not clear
> >
> >> >>>   that they belong to the regarding sections. (they are wrongly
> >> >>> aligned, at least in firefox)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * improve legibility of copy. split into several
> >
> >paragraphs and maybe
> >
> >> >>>   use lists.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   rationale: increase readability and scan-ability of text.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/after/data
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * reorder page structure for better understanding of the page.
> >> >>>   split Frank Zappa and Thelonius Mank (nice selection,
> >
> >BTW!) into
> >
> >> >>>   separate sections.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * increase whitespace, do not use nested lists inline but make
> >> >>> them real nested lists (in the T&C section)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/after/form
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * link logo to the home
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * link the teaser images in a consistent manner
> >
> >(compared to home)
> >
> >> >>> * reconsider LEGEND elements' length
> >> >>>   rationale: screenreaders will read the legend with
> >
> >every label in the
> >
> >> >>>   fieldset. is might be annoying.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * consider using a visually more unobstrusive but still
> >
> >accessible
> >
> >> >>>   technique.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * consider increasing size of comment-box
> >> >>>   use a textarea for "other reason"?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * reconsider text and form of "Rank your favourite forms of
> >> >>>   transportation" in section 2.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   - i'm not a native speaker, but i think a ranking
> >
> >should bring those
> >
> >> >>>     items in an order?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   - consider using a different form than drop-downs,
> >
> >maybe radiobuttons
> >
> >> >>>     as they are generally easier to use (single click)?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * ??? aren't numbers (1,2,3) generally easier to read
> >
> >and understand
> >
> >> >>>   than the words (one, two, three). maybe this is only
> >
> >true for bigger
> >
> >> >>>   numbers.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * increase and visually emphasize the submit button.
> >> >>>   i generally have the feeling the a reset button is
> >
> >useless in 99% of
> >
> >> >>>   the cases and every useless element should be dropped(TM).
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * Footer: provide a TITLE for KEIO to indicate what this
> >
> >might be. it's
> >
> >> >>>   not that famous among ordinary users ;-)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> gerneral comments on the presentation of BAD:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * make a tab-interface for good and bad (would be easier
> >
> >to understand
> >
> >> >>>   and to handle)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * make a slideshow-like before & next page navigation
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * make major barriers & improvements toggle-able (whats the right
> >> >>>   word?): maybe those comments could be positioned in
> >
> >lightboxes in the
> >
> >> >>>   margin?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> * crosslink barrieres to WCAG and maybe to our comparative
> >> >>> analysis
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> i hope that helps for the first,
> >> >>> regards, michael
> >
> >--
> >***********************************************
> >Isabelle Motte
> >Coordinatrice du stage multimédia CUD
> >Biologie - UMDB
> >Facultés Universitaires Notre-Dame de la Paix Rue de
> >Bruxelles,61 5000 Namur
> >081/724386
> >************************************************



-- 
***********************************************
Isabelle Motte
Coordinatrice du stage multimédia CUD
Biologie - UMDB
Facultés Universitaires Notre-Dame de la Paix
Rue de Bruxelles,61
5000 Namur
081/724386
************************************************
Received on Tuesday, 28 October 2008 08:58:49 UTC

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