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dropping the request -> Re: w3process-ACTION-47: Produce a proposal for addressing wayne's "comment 9" - allowing appeal where the director's decision isn't the same as the proposal sent for review.

From: Wayne Carr <wayne.carr@linux.intel.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:18:35 -0700
Message-ID: <550B210B.2040700@linux.intel.com>
To: public-w3process@w3.org
I'll drop the request to add: "and the Director approves the proposal 
without substantive change". It's clear some people who have been around 
think it was intended and not an error and that the AC approved it. (not 
just people on the list - I think others think that too.)

I do want the other appeals change, listing the appeal for unfinished 
specs which was approved in December.  That is just updating the list to 
reflect the new appeal that has already been adopted by the Director and 
AC it is an adopted policy in place that contains an appeal.  That 
request hasn't been controversial.

On 2015-03-18 21:22, Wayne Carr wrote:
>
>
> On 2015-03-18 16:30, David Singer wrote:
>> Overall, the whole question of appeals badly needs a cleanup.  In 
>> some places it says an AC Rep can initiate an appeal, in some other 
>> it says the AC (but I think it means the Rep.).  It’s clear that 5% 
>> of the AC have to agree to the appeal to cause a vote (within a 
>> week), but then is silent on whether there is a quorum requirement 
>> for the vote itself, and what the passage requirement is (50%? of 
>> those voting?). How long is the voting period?  And so on.
>>
>>> On Mar 18, 2015, at 14:14 , Wayne Carr <wayne.carr@linux.intel.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Alternate text to correct the problem:
>>>
>>> Current: "When Advisory Committee review immediately precedes a 
>>> decision, Advisory Committee representatives MAY only appeal when 
>>> there is dissent. "
>>> Proposed: "When Advisory Committee review immediately precedes a 
>>> decision and the Director approves the proposal, Advisory Committee 
>>> representatives MAY only appeal when there is dissent. “
>> so you want it to say that there can be appeal if either (a) there 
>> was dissent in the AC vote or (b) the Director’s decision is contrary 
>> to the unanimous (among those voting) opinion of the AC?
>
> Yes.
>
>>
>> like I say, I get what you are saying, but has that ever happened? 
>> will it?  The Director already knew that there was a unanimous 
>> position, and went the other way.  Why would he do that, if a single 
>> appeal could trigger a vote that might override him?
>
> WG Charter review.  Director thought it a good idea when submitted. In 
> AC Review, no formal objections (so no dissent), but AC reps asked for 
> changes while not requiring them.  Director decides the charter is a 
> mess and rejects it.  Some AC rep thinks the charter was fine and 
> shouldn't have been rejected.  5% agree. Vote happens and it passes.
>
> That doesn't seem impossible. It doesn't require bad behavior by 
> anyone.  It's all reasonable.  This is a very simple change.  What 
> harm could it do?  And if it never happens what harm could it do to 
> fix what clearly is an error?
>
>>
>> If we don’t make this change, what other course does the community have?
>>
>> Let’s say the AC, in a rare display of unity, REJECTS something. The 
>> Director then says ‘yes’, despite the entire community saying ‘heck, 
>> no’ (or at least the 3 who voted). Seems very unlikely.
>
> In that case, we already can appeal, because someone did a formal 
> objection.
>
>>
>>   Let’s say the AC accepts something.  The Director says ‘no’, 
>> despite the entire community (well, both voting) saying ‘yes’. Can’t 
>> they just ask again (e.g. ask the chair to make a trivial change to 
>> the document and re-request the transition)?
>
> You can't get back to the AC review unless the Director wants to. Make 
> it a WG charter like above.  Everyone says yes, Director says no 
> because of something that came up in the Review.  Only the Director 
> can choose to submit a Charter to the AC.  When the review and 
> decision are over, there's no way for the AC to cause it to be 
> reviewed again.  Appeal right then  after an AC Review is all we can do.
>
>>
>>> The text is trying to get rid of the case where the director 
>>> approves, no one disagreed in the AC review and then an AC rep 
>>> appeals because, while they didn't submit a review, they later 
>>> decide they don't like it.  But, it also removed the case where 
>>> there was no dissent because everyone in the AC approved, but the 
>>> director rejected it.
>>>
>>> Not a big deal, but why needlessly have this wrong when there is a 
>>> trivial wording fix?
>> The wording is not the hard part…it’s the likelihood.
>
> I'm hoping the Charter one is more convincing.  But, also -- it 
> clearly was intended to prevent appeal when the AC Review and Director 
> already completely agreed to approve - something good to prevent.  
> But, the wording also banned appeal when the AC all say YES and 
> Director says NO.
>
>>
>>>   But do we want:
>>>
>>> - AC cannot appeal a rejection when every AC rep who submitted a 
>>> review disagrees with the Director
>>> - AC can appeal a rejection when  every AC rep who submitted a 
>>> review agrees with the Director
>> no, there has to be dissent.  Some on one side, some the other.
>>
>>>>> I'd think no one intends for that to be the case.  It's an error 
>>>>> due to wording.  What the wording is trying to say is that the AC 
>>>>> cannot appeal in the following case:
>>>>> Example 2:  AC Review on publishing a Recommendation.  400 AC reps 
>>>>> approve publishing.  0 formal objections.  The Director approves 
>>>>> publication.  The AC cannot appeal.  No AC member can ask to 
>>>>> override if there were no formal objections in the AC review.  
>>>>> That's good, but they worded it so it also bans appeal if the 
>>>>> Director rejects publishing when no one objects to publishing!
>>>>>
>>>> I think that may be intentional.
>>> right, it's a wording error.
>> I said it may be *intentional*.  The Director can say “you goofballs 
>> all think this is a good idea, but I am The Director!” This is like a 
>> presidential veto.
>
> If it was intentional then he would be saying:  "400 yes and 0 no and 
> I can say NO anyway and nothing you can do about it!  But, 399 yes and 
> 1 NO and then I can't say NO because I'll let you appeal in that 
> case."  That doesn't sound intentional.
>
> Some AC rep can decide to always object in a trivial way to everything 
> and then the AC always has the right to appeal the results of AC 
> Reviews (of the things on the appeals list).  That would be silly - 
> the point is the change isn't doing something we couldn't already do 
> in a silly way and it corrects in a simple way what looks like 
> unintentionally bad wording.
>
>
>>
>> For all the principles, the W3C is formally a Monarchy (Dictatorship, 
>> whatever): we only ‘advise’…
>
> Not with the appeal process ... it's a system that allows the Director 
> to help keep things going with flexibility and not having to rely on 
> numerical votes in order to try to do the best thing. But, if we 
> really object, we can appeal and then the AC does decide.  It never 
> has happened, so it must work fairly well.
>
> There are some things where it is a monarchy.  Proposing a Charter to 
> start a WG for instance.  Or resubmitting a Charter.
>
> But, this requested change isn't about changing that balance at all.  
> It's a mistake.  Changes a case that either will never happen or if it 
> did -- we really wouldn't want to happen.  So there is no harm in 
> changing it and we should.
>
>>
>> David Singer
>> Manager, Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Received on Thursday, 19 March 2015 19:19:09 UTC

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