Re: Proposed new Schema.org type for poetry and fiction

Hi

This is exactly why I thought I'd open the subject to gather some 
feedback before starting to draft up an idea! ;)

Yes, it's difficult to try to place a wide collection of types such as 
Poem, Short Story, etc into the existing schema.org structure. Poems and 
Short Stories can be (and frequently are) published online on websites 
and not in Books (or ebooks). And a Book doesn't have to be a written 
work (it can be a picture book) although obviously the vast majority of 
books contain writing.

A list of possible test cases might include:

* A short story, in the science fiction genre, published on an aspiring 
author's website (but never published in any book/ebook)
* A modernist poem on the subject of cities, published on a poet's 
website (but also included as part of a self-published book)
* A single chapter of a science fiction novel, published on a publishing 
company's website as a free teaser to entice people to buy the whole 
book (available in paperback and ebook)
* A short piece of fan-fiction about the 'Harry Potter' universe, 
published on a website that specialises in hosting fan fiction
* Shakespeare's Sonnet 18 ("Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?" 
etc) published on a website (and obviously available in many books)

I agree with you (Richard) about the "form" property being needed for 
more CreativeWork types - we included such a property in the 
schema.org/VisualArtwork type that I drafted up and which was released a 
month-or-so ago in the form of the schema.org/artform property. But 
again, I think we need to be clear about the difference between a "form" 
property (which describes the form of the item) and the existing "genre" 
property (which describes the content/style of the item). In your 
examples "self-portrait", "landscape", and "graffiti" are more probably 
covered by genre whereas the form properties for such examples might be 
"oil painting", "acrylic painting", "watercolour painting".

Cheers

Paul

On 2015-03-20 13:40, Peter Krauss wrote:
> A note about the "taxonomy" of CreativeWork:
> 
> * I agree that the reuse principle must be adopted when is possible:
> http://schema.org/Book [10], http://schema.org/Article [2], Blog, etc.
> can be reused with (or before) Poem, etc.
> 
> * I understand that Poem, Chapter, Table, Graphic, Formula, etc. can
> be both:  "structural part" and/or "type",
> 
>   "structural part" of a CreativeWork (Chapter of Book, Section of
> Article, etc.). Ref. NISO JATS standard (the semantic of verse-group,
> disp-formula, table, etc. as structural parts)
> 
>   "type" of a CreativeWork (Poem is subtype of
> CreativeWork/Literature)... Ex. Poem and Drama subtypes.
> 
> IMPORTANT: about "structural part", there are some confusion about
> "content part" and "concrete part"... I vote to the "content view"
> over the "concrete view" of a CreativeWork... The tendency nowadays is
> to use the "content" as reference. See the similar dichotomy at "Media
> vs Content" in ISSN:
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Serial_Number#Media_vs_Content
> [11]
> 
> PS: this personal view make sense? There are some related "SchemaOrg
> directives"? perhaps they are in
>      http://schema.org/docs/extension.html [12]
>      but I not see with clarity...
> 
> 2015-03-20 10:03 GMT-03:00 Wallis,Richard <Richard.Wallis@oclc.org>:
> 
>> I share the concerns that without care, this could explode in all
>> directions.
>> 
>> I don’t see the logic of putting something as a subType of Article
>> just to inherit the pagination properties.
>> 
>> I believe that the subdivision of CreativeWork types being
>> considered here (poetry, fiction, sonnet, etc.) is somewhat
>> orthogonal to the structures already in place in Schema.org [9].
>> Are not a Book, Article, Blog, all examples of written works?
>> 
>> I believe there is a need for some more CreativeWork subTypes -
>> Chapter, & Poem immediately come to mind.
>> 
>> I also feel that this proposal is expressing the need for something
>> such as a ‘form’ property for CreativeWork which in this area
>> could be used for novel, poetry, fiction, etc. I would expect that
>> such a property would also be useful for other areas of CreativeWork
>> - perhaps color, B&W, sepia, for photographs - miniature,
>> self-portrait, landscape, graffiti for painting.
>> 
>> ~Richard
>> 
>> On 20 Mar 2015, at 11:47, <lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk>
>> <lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2015-03-20 10:29, Niklas Lindström wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 7:01 AM, Paul Watson
>>>> <lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 19/03/15 08:52, Anke Wehner wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 19 March 2015 at 09:01, Paul Watson
>>>>> <lazarus@lazaruscorporation.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am thinking about proposing a new schema.org [1] [1] type for
>>> poetry,
>>>>> fiction, and other types of creative writing, as a subType of
>>>>> schema.org/Article [2] [2], perhaps with an additional property
>>> that can
>>>>> be used to classify what type of creative writing it is (e.g.
>>> poem,
>>>>> haiku, sonnet, short story, fan fiction, etc.).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Having ways to categorise creative writing would be a good
>>> thing,
>>>>> but I don't think defining them as subtype of Article makes
>>> sense
>>>>> semantically. A poem, novel or movie script is not an article.
>>>>> 
>>>>> How about creating CreativeWork > WrittenWork, moving
>>> wordCount,
>>>>> pageEnd, pageStart and pagination from Article there, and
>>> making
>>>>> Article and CreativeWriting subtypes of WrittenWork?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Anke
>>>> 
>>>> I went for the least disruptive change rather than the most
>>>> semantically correct one, but if people are happy to create
>>>> WrittenWork and shift Article to be it's subtype then I'd be
>>> happy
>>>> with that.
>>>> 
>>>> So, the suggestion as it stands is to create a new type of
>>>> WrittenWork as a subtype of Article; move wordCount, pageEnd,
>>>> pageStart and pagination from Article to it's new parent
>>> WrittenWork,
>>>> then create a new subtype of WrittenWork called CreativeWriting,
>>> with
>>>> at least one new property (currently unnamed) that can be used
>>> to
>>>> classify what type of creative writing it is (e.g. poem, haiku,
>>>> sonnet, short story, fan fiction, etc.). Or should we take the
>>>> opportunity to create some subtypes of CreativeWriting while
>>> we're
>>>> doing this (e.g. Poem, Story, Script, etc.) instead of using a
>>> new
>>>> property of CreativeWriting to classify the type?
>>>> 
>>>> These seem like (bibliographic) questions I would like to
>>> involve the
>>>> SchemaBibEx CG [1] in. There is a dedicated mailing list [2]
>>> where we
>>>> could go into depth on this, unless all feel comfortable hashing
>>> out
>>>> the options here. (I did not CC the schemabibex group in this
>>> reply.)
>>>> 
>>>> My spontaneous reaction is that there may be some need for a
>>> subtype
>>>> for textual works. But I am wary about making it vaguely limited
>>> to
>>>> "creative" forms (if "creative" here implies excluding
>>> non-fiction,
>>>> academic essays and such). Anke's basic WrittenWork might be
>>> enough.
>>>> The specific nature of the text can probably be given using
>>>> http://schema.org/genre [3] [3] (provided a resolution to schema
>>> issue 346
>>>> [3]) in combination with external enumerations? (See e.g. "genre
>>> in
>>>> literature" on wikipedia [4] for the motivation to use genre.)
>>> Compare
>>>> that to the newly introduced property http://schema.org/artform
>>> [4] [4],
>>>> which (as I previously suggested) might be extended to include
>>> other
>>>> forms of expression. (To me, it bears a resemblance to genre,
>>> perhaps
>>>> even being a subproperty thereof.)
>>>> 
>>>> In any case, the multitude of nature-specific subclasses of
>>>> WrittenText can explode just as with specific kinds of
>>> VisualArtwork
>>>> (which was the motivation for introducing artwork as opposed to
>>> using
>>>> multiple types directly). I'd really like experienced library
>>> folks to
>>>> chime in, and that we avoid the introduction of anything overly
>>>> specific here.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Niklas
>>>> 
>>>> [1]: https://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/ [5] [5]
>>>> [2]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-schemabibex/ [6]
>>> [6]
>>>> [3]: https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/346 [7] [7]
>>>> [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre#Literature [8] [8]
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> I'd be very grateful for the experienced library folks to chime
>>> in!
>>> 
>>> I think we've got to be careful about being confused between form
>>> (e.g. the artform property of VisualArtwork or a new property for
>>> the proposed new type for potery/fiction) and genre.
>>> 
>>> The former is about the form of the content (for VisualArtwork:
>>> Acrylic Painting, Oil Painting, Drawing, Woodcut), whereas genre
>>> is about the subject matter of the content (Landscape painting,
>>> studio portrait, street scene).
>>> 
>>> This is probably even more apparent for written works where the
>>> new 'type' property would hold values such as "short story",
>>> "novel", "novella", "Poem", "haiku" (relating to the form of the
>>> written work), while the existing genre property inherited from
>>> CreativeWork would be for the genre of the content of the written
>>> work: "Science Fiction", "Fantasy", "Romance", "Horror", "Literary
>>> Fiction" etc.
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> Paul
>>> 
>>>>> > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://schema.org [1] > [2]
>>> http://schema.org/Article [2] > [3] http://schema.org/genre [3] >
>>> [4] http://schema.org/artform [4] > [5]
>>> https://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/ [5] > [6]
>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-schemabibex/ [6] > [7]
>>> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/346 [7] > [8]
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre#Literature [8]
> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://schema.org
> [2] http://schema.org/Article
> [3] http://schema.org/genre
> [4] http://schema.org/artform
> [5] https://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/
> [6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-schemabibex/
> [7] https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/346
> [8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre#Literature
> [9] http://Schema.org
> [10] http://schema.org/Book
> [11]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Serial_Number#Media_vs_Content
> [12] http://schema.org/docs/extension.html

Received on Friday, 20 March 2015 13:51:48 UTC