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Re: Semantically marking up a "checklist" or process

From: Jason Douglas <jasondouglas@google.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 16:53:01 -0700
Message-ID: <CAEiKvUDQH7sz5AOHB=d6gmT0u1qh4DsjpJTroTcHkOMh_Oi3pw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jarno van Driel <jarno@quantumspork.nl>
Cc: Martin Hepp <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>, Justin Boyan <jaboyan@google.com>, Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com>, Guha Guha <guha@google.com>, TallyFy <hello@tallyfy.com>, PublicVocabs <public-vocabs@w3.org>, Vicki Tardif Holland <vtardif@google.com>, Sam Goto <goto@google.com>
On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Jarno van Driel <jarno@quantumspork.nl>wrote:

> What I tried to portray is more a thought than an exact proposition. My
> point with it is that IMHO it would better to have an 'order' mechanism
> within schema.org/Thing than having it only applied to a
> schema.org/ListItem. Mainly because I think a mechanism to create order
> can be applicable in many more situations besides a schema.org/ItemListand was wondering if others agree with this line of thought
>

Chaining might be sufficient for these procedural use cases, but it doesn't
seem sufficient as a universal schema.org list mechanism... track numbers
on a CD, for example, can have gaps in the numerical sequence.  Or numbered
lists might not start at 1 (or 0 ;-).


>
> Now as for the exact way how we can accomplish this, I'm sure there are
> plenty of folks here who know a lot more on how to accomplish something
> like this than I do. So by all means correct me where I'm wrong.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Jason Douglas <jasondouglas@google.com>wrote:
>
>> I'm not following why adding "next" and "prev" to Thing is better than
>> adding "position"?  They both seem equally problematic semantically, yet
>> the former offers less convenience than the latter... and also interferes
>> with the recommended use of itemid as a canonical URL.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Jarno van Driel <jarno@quantumspork.nl>wrote:
>>
>>> Now maybe I'm a bit naive but I can't help thinking about the mechanism
>>> that exist in HTML to create order, namely rel="next" and rel="prev".
>>>
>>> Could we maybe do something with mark up like this:
>>>
>>> <div itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/ItemList">
>>>   <h2 itemprop="name">Most popular products</h2>
>>>
>>>   <ol>
>>>     <li itemprop="itemListElement" itemid="product-1" itemscope
>>> itemtype="http://schema.org/Product">
>>>       <link itemprop="next" href="product-2">
>>>
>>>       <a itemprop="url" href="http://example.org/producturl">
>>>         <span itemprop="name">ProductName</span>
>>>       </a>
>>>     </li>
>>>
>>>     <li itemprop="itemListElement" itemid="product-2" itemscope
>>> itemtype="http://schema.org/Product">
>>>       <link itemprop="prev" href="product-1">
>>>       <link itemprop="next" href="product-3">
>>>
>>>       <a itemprop="url" href="http://example.org/producturl">
>>>         <span itemprop="name">ProductName</span>
>>>       </a>
>>>     </li>
>>>
>>>     <li itemprop="itemListElement" itemid="product-2" itemscope
>>> itemtype="http://schema.org/Product">
>>>       <link itemprop="prev" href="product-2">
>>>
>>>       <a itemprop="url" href="http://example.org/producturl">
>>>         <span itemprop="name">ProductName</span>
>>>       </a>
>>>     </li>
>>>   </ol>
>>> </div>
>>>
>>> Here we have a <link> element and 2 new properties for 'Thing'
>>> (Product): 'next' & 'prev' (or whichever labels would be more preferable)
>>> which by means of the href could be linked to the corresponding 'itemid'.
>>>
>>> Would thist be a viable line of thought?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 10:05 PM, Jarno van Driel <jarno@quantumspork.nl
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have spend some time reading the sources provided by Martin and after
>>>> thinking his proposition through I come the to the conclusion his
>>>> proposition just isn't quite there yet, since the creation of the new type
>>>> 'ListItem' still doesn't fix the issue that Things can't be linked to
>>>> itemListElements.
>>>>
>>>> To compensate this Martin suggests that, with the addition of the
>>>> 'ListItem' type, declaration of an additionalType could resolve this.
>>>> Now correct if I'm wrong here, but isn't the 'additionalType' property
>>>> typically used to declare a (more specific) type from a different
>>>> vocabulary instead of declaring a second schema.org type?
>>>>
>>>> Next to that, If I interpretate his proposition correctly and make an
>>>> HTML example, I come to something like this:
>>>> (sorry for doing it in Microdata, I'm not to comfortable with RDFa
>>>> still)
>>>>
>>>> <div itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/ItemList">
>>>>   <h2 itemprop="name">Most popular products</h2>
>>>>
>>>>   <ol>
>>>>     <li itemprop="itemListElement" itemscope itemtype="
>>>> http://schema.org/ListItem" additionalType="http://schema.org/Product">
>>>>       <meta itemprop="itemPostion" content="1">
>>>>
>>>>       <a itemprop="url" href="http://example.org/producturl">
>>>>         <span itemprop="name">ProductName</span>
>>>>       </a>
>>>>     </li>
>>>>
>>>>     <li itemprop="itemListElement" itemscope itemtype="
>>>> http://schema.org/ListItem" additionalType="http://schema.org/Product">
>>>>       <meta itemprop="itemPostion" content="2">
>>>>
>>>>       <a itemprop="url" href="http://example.org/producturl">
>>>>         <span itemprop="name">ProductName</span>
>>>>       </a>
>>>>     </li>
>>>>
>>>>     <!-- etc, etc -->
>>>>   </ol>
>>>> </div>
>>>>
>>>> Doing it this way would falsely give the 'Product' the 'itemPosition'
>>>> property as well, entering a whole new area of problems.
>>>>
>>>> Now Martin also said: "... whether the expected range for
>>>> itemListElement could be broadened to schema:Thing. From the top of my
>>>> head, I would oppose that, for the simple reason that the property
>>>> itemPosition would then have to be added to Thing, which is confusing."
>>>>
>>>> Here I have to agree that adding 'itemPosition' to 'Thing' would be
>>>> confusing indeed but maybe we should keep thinking in this direction
>>>> nonetheless. Apparently we're missing a proper way to add 'order' to
>>>> schema.org. This doesn't only count for an ItemList but for example
>>>> also faults in being able to declare the order of a series of WebPages
>>>> (book) or images (IKEA manual), etc.
>>>>
>>>> If we can come up with a proper manner to declare the order of Things,
>>>> this could be very applicable in a lot other situations as well. And in
>>>> case of an itemListElement it would make it possible to have it's range
>>>> contain a Thing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Martin Hepp <
>>>> martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So in short, if it is okay for you to collate the entity and the list
>>>>> item for the entity, we can simply work with a multi-typed HTML element and
>>>>> save one additional property. If you want to be able to model the entity
>>>>> independently of the list item and have a formal link between both, we need
>>>>> an additional property. But then this should maybe be a generic property
>>>>> for linking entities and their representation (maybe from the library
>>>>> extension, did not check), and we are also in the middle of philosophical
>>>>> distinctions that are, while valuable, difficult to teach to broad
>>>>> audiences ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I am for simply collating them and using a single multi-typed entity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 10, 2013, at 4:48 PM, Justin Boyan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Martin,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Wouldn't the ListItem also need a second property, call it "item",
>>>>> with a range of Thing? Otherwise how would we mark up a list of
>>>>> Restaurants, a list of Universities, etc.?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Justin
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Martin Hepp <mfhepp@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > Hi Dan, Guha:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Attached, please find the proposal in the RDFa format necessary for
>>>>> inclusion in schema.org.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Martin
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > <!-- ========================== -->
>>>>> > <!-- CHANGES TO EXISTING ELEMENTS -->
>>>>> > <!-- ========================== -->
>>>>> >
>>>>> > <!-- New range
>>>>> > <div typeof="rdf:Property" about="http://schema.org/itemListElement
>>>>> ">
>>>>> >         <span>Domain: <a property="http://schema.org/domain" href="
>>>>> http://schema.org/ItemList">ItemList</a></span>
>>>>> >         <span>Range: <a property="http://schema.org/range" href="
>>>>> http://schema.org/ListItem">ListItem</a></span>
>>>>> >         <span>Range: <a property="http://schema.org/range" href="
>>>>> http://schema.org/Text">Text</a></span>
>>>>> >         ItemList
>>>>> > </div>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > <!-- ========================== -->
>>>>> > <!-- ADDITIONAL ELEMENTS -->
>>>>> > <!-- ========================== -->
>>>>> >
>>>>> > <div typeof="rdfs:Class" about="http://schema.org/ListItem">
>>>>> >         <span class="h" property="rdfs:label">ListItem</span>
>>>>> >         <span property="rdfs:comment">An list item, e.g. a step in a
>>>>> checklist or how-to description.</span>
>>>>> >         <span>Subclass of: <a property="rdfs:subClassOf" href="
>>>>> http://schema.org/StructuredValue">StructuredValue</a></span>
>>>>> > </div>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > <div typeof="rdf:Property" about="http://schema.org/itemPosition">
>>>>> >         <span class="h" property="rdfs:label">itemPosition</span>
>>>>> >         <span property="rdfs:comment">The position of the item in an
>>>>> ordered list (1 = first, 2 = second, ...).</span>
>>>>> >         <span>Domain: <a property="http://schema.org/domain" href="
>>>>> http://schema.org/ListItem">ListItem</a></span>
>>>>> >         <span>Range: <a property="http://schema.org/range" href="
>>>>> http://schema.org/Number">Number</a></span>
>>>>> > </div>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Sep 10, 2013, at 3:01 PM, Martin Hepp wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > Hi Jarno:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >>> Now if the expected value of an itemListElement could also be a
>>>>> Thing, wouldn't both the order (of the output array) and the Things it's
>>>>> about be preserved?
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > In fact, that includes the interesting question whether the
>>>>> expected range for itemListElement could be broadened to schema:Thing.
>>>>> > > From the top of my head, I would oppose that, for the simple
>>>>> reason that the property itemPosition would then have to be added to Thing,
>>>>> which is confusing.
>>>>> > > Second, if you want to type the ListItem further, you could simply
>>>>> use a secondary type via basic RDFa patterns or the additionalType property.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > As for the order:
>>>>> > > Implicitly, the order of the elements from the HTML tree would be
>>>>> accessible. But at least in RDFa syntax that is not preserved when the data
>>>>> is extracted.
>>>>> > > Also, it is possible that the ordering in the list differs from
>>>>> the intended conceptual ordering.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > So again, I think that with as little as one new type, one range
>>>>> change, and one additional property we could get this issue done.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Martin
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > On Sep 10, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Jarno van Driel wrote:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >> Correction: I should have mentioned:
>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vocabs/2013Jun/0042.htmlThe other example contain formatting errors.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Jarno van Driel <
>>>>> jarno@quantumspork.nl> wrote:
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> One of the problems I tried to raise/get answered (
>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vocabs/2013Jun/0043.html)
>>>>> about thehttp://schema.org/ItemList itemListElement property is that
>>>>> it's expected value is text. So if you mark up a top10 list of Things you
>>>>> loose the linkage between the ItemList and the Things it's about.
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> Now if the expected value of an itemListElement could also be a
>>>>> Thing, wouldn't both the order (of the output array) and the Things it's
>>>>> about be preserved?
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>>
>>>>> > >>> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Justin Boyan <
>>>>> jaboyan@google.com> wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> I support Martin's suggestion. This would also better model the
>>>>> common structure of "top 10 lists", such as these:
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> http://www.zagat.com/l/boston/great-restaurants-for-ribs-in-boston
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> http://blogs.sfweekly.com/foodie/2012/01/san_franciscos_top_10_burritos.php
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> http://guestofaguest.com/new-york/nightlife/downtown-nyc-happy-hour-10-bars-to-check-out-after-work-today
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> Note that in the last 2 of these 3 cases, the list is separated
>>>>> over multiple web pages, which makes it crucial to model the position
>>>>> number explicitly rather than trying to infer it from the container.
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> I think ListItem should not be a subtype of WebPageElement -
>>>>> that's just confounding two things and adding a bunch of needless
>>>>> subproperties. It can live under schema.org/StructuredValue with
>>>>> other similar types.
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> I would suggest that itemPosition be 1-based, rather than
>>>>> 0-based, since that is by far the predominant usage for all the use cases
>>>>> discussed above.
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> Justin
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >>>> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 2:54 AM, Martin Hepp <
>>>>> martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> Hi Amit,
>>>>> > >>>>> If the goal is to merely capture the elements of a checklist
>>>>> as a list structure, then
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>    http://schema.org/ItemList
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> should IMO provide all that is needed.
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> In RDFa or other RDF syntaxes, this of course means loosing
>>>>> the order of the items, as Vicki Tardif already pointed out.
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> A simple solution would be to
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> 1. define a type ListItem with an additional property
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> itemPosition Number The position of the item in an ordered
>>>>> list 0 = first, 1 = second, ...
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> We could also reuse
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>        http://purl.org/goodrelations/v1#displayPosition
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> for that; it serves a similar purpose.
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> 2. expand the range of the itemListElement from Text to Text
>>>>> or ListItem
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> That should do the trick. At least I guess you could
>>>>> immediately mark up all of the example pages you listed.
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> By the way, we should discuss whether ItemList should rather
>>>>> become a subtype of http://schema.org/WebPageElement, since we have
>>>>> Table there, so we may also want to have List there. A counter argument is
>>>>> that while Table is a significant Web page element type, List is a more
>>>>> generic data structure and not constrained to Web pages. (But then again,
>>>>> some tables outside of HTML markup, e.g. in JSON-LD or CSV, are also not
>>>>> WebPageElements in the strict sense).
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> Martin
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> On Sep 9, 2013, at 5:44 PM, TallyFy wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>> Some examples  ...
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>> Web:
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.realsimple.com/home-organizing/cleaning/fall-cleaning-checklist-00000000000928/index.html
>>>>> > >>>>>> http://www.wikihow.com/Main-Page
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.realsimple.com/weddings/dress-attire/wedding-gown-shopping-checklist-00000000000200/index.html
>>>>> > >>>>>> http://terrymorris.net/bestpractices/
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>> Gov:
>>>>> > >>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-checklist
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hurricane-supply-checklist(in a pdf)
>>>>> > >>>>>> http://web.nvd.nist.gov/view/ncp/repository (a simpler
>>>>> version would be great!)
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>> Health:
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Healthyhearts/Pages/Arrhythmiachecklist.aspx
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>> I proposed this initiative just to wrap steps in a checklist.
>>>>> The capture of content from each step or conditional stuff is out of range
>>>>> and is a user interaction. There's many examples in the book "The Checklist
>>>>> Manifesto" by Dr. Atul Gawande:
>>>>> > >>>>>> http://gawande.com/the-checklist-manifesto
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>> When Tallyfy launches in a few months, we will have some too.
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>> thanks
>>>>> > >>>>>> Amit
>>>>> > >>>>>> On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 15:39, Martin Hepp wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Jason:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Process modeling is a rat hole and way out of scope, IMO
>>>>> > >>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>> I fully agree ;-)
>>>>> > >>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>> But even if you decide to add a very simple mechanism for
>>>>> exposing structured "step-by-step" info, I think that both
>>>>> > >>>>>>> a) explicit control flows (step x follows step x) and
>>>>> > >>>>>>> b( patterns for declarative approaches should be added (like
>>>>> "dependsOn" and "consequence" or"nextStep").
>>>>> > >>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>> Is the proposal under discussion here driven by actual use
>>>>> cases? If such, it would be good to have a couple of sites at hand that
>>>>> currently expose such checklist or process information.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>> Martin
>>>>> > >>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sep 9, 2013, at 4:33 PM, Jason Douglas wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Yipes. I thought this thread was just about understanding
>>>>> "howto" content pages in a structured way. Process modeling is a rat hole
>>>>> and way out of scope, IMO.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 4:17 AM, Martin Hepp <
>>>>> martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Sep 9, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Tallyfy wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Are Wil and Jan members of this list?
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I don't know, but I don't think so.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Without prejudice to some work here that may result in a
>>>>> simple and web-friendly spec, I think some organisation to reach the goal
>>>>> of defining explicit control flow would be highly rewarding - since it
>>>>> would represent a necessary evolution beyond machine-understandable markup
>>>>> and entities. How entities are a constituent of higher level goals and
>>>>> processes is probably the real answer to better search. If not search, they
>>>>> would be a very interesting in terms of knowledge discovery - such as being
>>>>> to ask 'What happens at the Chile embassy [location]?' in Sam's example, to
>>>>> use just one permutation of many possible questions. Bringing all this to a
>>>>> scale such as the web would be very exciting.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> We at Tallyfy can help to define and implement Process
>>>>> markup, but we are one of many others. Is there a way that a project with
>>>>> some organisation can be spawned from this discussion?
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Amit
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 9 Sep 2013, at 11:33, Martin Hepp <
>>>>> martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> All:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> If you really want to embark into process modeling in
>>>>> schema.org, then you should first become clear about
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> - whether you want to model processes in procedural
>>>>> fashion (explicit control flow) or a declarative fashion (modeling a set of
>>>>> actions and their pre- and post-conditions), and
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> - whether the process models should be executable by a
>>>>> computer or merely documents for human consumption.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hundreds of researchers have worked on understanding how
>>>>> processes can be modeled in the context of information systems, and the
>>>>> least one can say is that
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 1. it is hard and
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 2. quick, simple approaches don't work or don't scale or
>>>>> both.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> See e.g.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www2.informatik.hu-berlin.de/top/download/publications/fahlandlmrwwz_2009_emmsad.pdf
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> for a brief overview.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Without excluding others, I think it would make a lot of
>>>>> sense to involve
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Wil van der Aalst, http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~wvdaalst/
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Jan Mendling, http://www.wu.ac.at/infobiz/team/mendling
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> in any such draft. They both spent years of their lives
>>>>> into understanding the challenges of process modeling...
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 6, 2013, at 10:04 PM, Vicki Tardif Holland wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I think a combination of Jason's suggestion of
>>>>> http://schema.org/ItemList and something similar to
>>>>> http://schema.org/Recipe would do the trick. The key difference is
>>>>> that you probably want to specify the step number instead of relying on
>>>>> page layout as parsers often discard the order of elements.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Vicki
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Vicki Tardif Holland | Metadata Analyst |
>>>>> vtardif@google.com | 978-613-9630
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 7:17 AM, Tallyfy <
>>>>> hello@tallyfy.com> wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> "Process" sounds very promising as a purely top-level
>>>>> construct, because any serial process (not related to a "thing" but maybe
>>>>> with embedded references to things) can be wrapped and labelled as an
>>>>> actionable container. http://schema.org/Recipe is the same concept as
>>>>> this, but only relates to food recipes.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> We subscribe the Gates quote - "the future of search is
>>>>> verbs" and interpret it as machines able to understand not just content,
>>>>> but processes like "How to get a Chile tourist visa for British citizens" -
>>>>> an ordered list of steps. Rankings for processes are also different to
>>>>> content backlinks, which we are working on, as you could define
>>>>> pre-requisites (do this before doing this) and chain processes after (after
>>>>> doing this - continue with this).
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Could somebody help me propose this as a new item? I
>>>>> have no idea where to start.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Amit
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> http://tallyfy.com
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 5 September 2013 at 17:36, Sam Goto wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe an ItemList (or a specialized subclass, e.g.
>>>>> http://schema.org/Process) of http://schema.org/Action and its
>>>>> subclasses?
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Tallyfy <
>>>>> hello@tallyfy.com> wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The list may not be about a specific thing, but a
>>>>> process - which could include many things. For example - the list, "How to
>>>>> enjoy a great Saturday night in" might have a reference to a food - pizza
>>>>> AND a movie - as an entity, etc. Granted, the example isn't the best, but
>>>>> it's entirely unrelated to any specific thing.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> In the composite scenario (which might not even have
>>>>> any linked entities) - I guess there might not even be a thing here at all,
>>>>> it's quite specifically a set of steps with an objective. For example "What
>>>>> to look out for when buying a house in London"
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> So to clarify, this isn't to enumerate objects or
>>>>> things into a determined order like "Top 10" - it's to define actionable
>>>>> things as steps - whether or not there's related entities.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 5 September 2013 at 17:24, Jason Douglas
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe a new subclass of ItemList?
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aside: seems like ItemListElement should have a range
>>>>> of Thing so you could do structured lists (movies, steps, etc.).
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -jason
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:44 AM, Tallyfy <
>>>>> hello@tallyfy.com> wrote:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I run a startup called http://tallyfy.com
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We've just been enrolled into StartupChile, and aim
>>>>> to launch within a few months using their help. Our homepage looks
>>>>> something like this:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14563542/tallyfy.png
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What we do is allow anyone to embed knowledge as
>>>>> steps in a checklist or a process. Examples might be:
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  How to bake a carrot cake
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  How to change a bicycle tyre
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  What to pack if you're visiting the Amazon
>>>>> rainforest
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  My bucket list
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The clearest and most obvious point to make here is
>>>>> that these checklists, when marked up via schema.org would be
>>>>> excellent ways to present answers to questions without people going through
>>>>> many pages on search engines.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I wanted to propose a schema for marking up a
>>>>> checklist (or a process).. If there is one already - could someone point me
>>>>> to it?
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If we could understand that this is a "set of steps
>>>>> for doing something" - I think that would be very valuable, not just to
>>>>> search but for people looking for knowledge which is actionable, not just
>>>>> web pages. In other words, an actual set of steps marked up is more
>>>>> valuable than a block of content (usually using <ol> or <ul> HTML) which
>>>>> blends into a web page.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We intend to do a lot more - you can measure how
>>>>> many people did a checklist, how long it took on average, reviews, etc. so
>>>>> perhaps those could incorporate into this schema.
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amit
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> martin hepp
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> e-business & web science research group
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> e-mail: hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> phone: +49-(0)89-6004-4217
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> fax: +49-(0)89-6004-4620
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> www: http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> skype: mfhepp
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> twitter: mfhepp
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of
>>>>> Linked Data!
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> =================================================================
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> martin hepp
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> e-business & web science research group
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> e-mail: hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> phone: +49-(0)89-6004-4217
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> fax: +49-(0)89-6004-4620
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> www: http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> skype: mfhepp
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> twitter: mfhepp
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked
>>>>> Data!
>>>>> > >>>>>>>>
>>>>> =================================================================
>>>>> > >>>>>>>> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>>>>> > >>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> > >>>>>>> martin hepp
>>>>> > >>>>>>> e-business & web science research group
>>>>> > >>>>>>> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>>>>> > >>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>> e-mail: hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>>>>> > >>>>>>> phone: +49-(0)89-6004-4217
>>>>> > >>>>>>> fax: +49-(0)89-6004-4620
>>>>> > >>>>>>> www: http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>>>>> > >>>>>>> skype: mfhepp
>>>>> > >>>>>>> twitter: mfhepp
>>>>> > >>>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>>> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked
>>>>> Data!
>>>>> > >>>>>>>
>>>>> =================================================================
>>>>> > >>>>>>> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>>>>> > >>>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> > >>>>> martin hepp
>>>>> > >>>>> e-business & web science research group
>>>>> > >>>>> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> e-mail:  hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>>>>> > >>>>> phone:   +49-(0)89-6004-4217
>>>>> > >>>>> fax:     +49-(0)89-6004-4620
>>>>> > >>>>> www:     http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>>>>> > >>>>>         http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>>>>> > >>>>> skype:   mfhepp
>>>>> > >>>>> twitter: mfhepp
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked
>>>>> Data!
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> =================================================================
>>>>> > >>>>> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>>
>>>>> > >>>>
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> > > martin hepp
>>>>> > > e-business & web science research group
>>>>> > > universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > e-mail:  hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>>>>> > > phone:   +49-(0)89-6004-4217
>>>>> > > fax:     +49-(0)89-6004-4620
>>>>> > > www:     http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>>>>> > >         http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>>>>> > > skype:   mfhepp
>>>>> > > twitter: mfhepp
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
>>>>> > > =================================================================
>>>>> > > * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> martin hepp
>>>>> e-business & web science research group
>>>>> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>>>>>
>>>>> e-mail:  hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>>>>> phone:   +49-(0)89-6004-4217
>>>>> fax:     +49-(0)89-6004-4620
>>>>> www:     http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>>>>>          http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>>>>> skype:   mfhepp
>>>>> twitter: mfhepp
>>>>>
>>>>> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
>>>>> =================================================================
>>>>> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
Received on Tuesday, 10 September 2013 23:53:33 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 21:29:31 UTC