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Re: Semantically marking up a "checklist" or process

From: Jarno van Driel <jarno@quantumspork.nl>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 14:18:39 +0200
Message-ID: <CAFQgrbYeApCuiHj1G8FZU3B-auq1+mCGW=QSKkqeiei29B5u=w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Justin Boyan <jaboyan@google.com>
Cc: Martin Hepp <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>, TallyFy <hello@tallyfy.com>, Jason Douglas <jasondouglas@google.com>, PublicVocabs <public-vocabs@w3.org>, Vicki Tardif Holland <vtardif@google.com>, Sam Goto <goto@google.com>
Correction: I should have mentioned:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vocabs/2013Jun/0042.html The
other example contain formatting errors.


On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Jarno van Driel <jarno@quantumspork.nl>
wrote:
>
> One of the problems I tried to raise/get answered (
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vocabs/2013Jun/0043.html) about
thehttp://schema.org/ItemList itemListElement property is that it's
expected value is text. So if you mark up a top10 list of Things you loose
the linkage between the ItemList and the Things it's about.
>
>
> Now if the expected value of an itemListElement could also be a Thing,
wouldn't both the order (of the output array) and the Things it's about be
preserved?
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Justin Boyan <jaboyan@google.com> wrote:
> >
> > I support Martin's suggestion. This would also better model the common
structure of "top 10 lists", such as these:
> >
> > http://www.zagat.com/l/boston/great-restaurants-for-ribs-in-boston
> >
http://blogs.sfweekly.com/foodie/2012/01/san_franciscos_top_10_burritos.php
> >
http://guestofaguest.com/new-york/nightlife/downtown-nyc-happy-hour-10-bars-to-check-out-after-work-today
> >
> > Note that in the last 2 of these 3 cases, the list is separated over
multiple web pages, which makes it crucial to model the position number
explicitly rather than trying to infer it from the container.
> >
> > I think ListItem should not be a subtype of WebPageElement - that's
just confounding two things and adding a bunch of needless subproperties.
It can live under schema.org/StructuredValue with other similar types.
> >
> > I would suggest that itemPosition be 1-based, rather than 0-based,
since that is by far the predominant usage for all the use cases discussed
above.
> >
> > Justin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 2:54 AM, Martin Hepp <
martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Amit,
> >> If the goal is to merely capture the elements of a checklist as a list
structure, then
> >>
> >>     http://schema.org/ItemList
> >>
> >> should IMO provide all that is needed.
> >>
> >> In RDFa or other RDF syntaxes, this of course means loosing the order
of the items, as Vicki Tardif already pointed out.
> >>
> >> A simple solution would be to
> >>
> >> 1. define a type ListItem with an additional property
> >>
> >> itemPosition Number The position of the item in an ordered list 0 =
first, 1 = second, ...
> >>
> >> We could also reuse
> >>
> >>         http://purl.org/goodrelations/v1#displayPosition
> >>
> >> for that; it serves a similar purpose.
> >>
> >> 2. expand the range of the itemListElement from Text to Text or
ListItem
> >>
> >> That should do the trick. At least I guess you could immediately mark
up all of the example pages you listed.
> >>
> >> By the way, we should discuss whether ItemList should rather become a
subtype of http://schema.org/WebPageElement, since we have Table there, so
we may also want to have List there. A counter argument is that while Table
is a significant Web page element type, List is a more generic data
structure and not constrained to Web pages. (But then again, some tables
outside of HTML markup, e.g. in JSON-LD or CSV, are also not
WebPageElements in the strict sense).
> >>
> >> Martin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sep 9, 2013, at 5:44 PM, TallyFy wrote:
> >>
> >> > Some examples  ...
> >> >
> >> > Web:
> >> >
http://www.realsimple.com/home-organizing/cleaning/fall-cleaning-checklist-00000000000928/index.html
> >> > http://www.wikihow.com/Main-Page
> >> >
http://www.realsimple.com/weddings/dress-attire/wedding-gown-shopping-checklist-00000000000200/index.html
> >> > http://terrymorris.net/bestpractices/
> >> >
> >> > Gov:
> >> > https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-checklist
> >> > https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hurricane-supply-checklist(in a pdf)
> >> > http://web.nvd.nist.gov/view/ncp/repository (a simpler version would
be great!)
> >> >
> >> > Health:
> >> >
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Healthyhearts/Pages/Arrhythmiachecklist.aspx
> >> >
> >> > I proposed this initiative just to wrap steps in a checklist. The
capture of content from each step or conditional stuff is out of range and
is a user interaction. There's many examples in the book "The Checklist
Manifesto" by Dr. Atul Gawande:
> >> > http://gawande.com/the-checklist-manifesto
> >> >
> >> > When Tallyfy launches in a few months, we will have some too.
> >> >
> >> > thanks
> >> > Amit
> >> > On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 15:39, Martin Hepp wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi Jason:
> >> >>> Process modeling is a rat hole and way out of scope, IMO
> >> >>
> >> >> I fully agree ;-)
> >> >>
> >> >> But even if you decide to add a very simple mechanism for exposing
structured "step-by-step" info, I think that both
> >> >> a) explicit control flows (step x follows step x) and
> >> >> b( patterns for declarative approaches should be added (like
"dependsOn" and "consequence" or"nextStep").
> >> >>
> >> >> Is the proposal under discussion here driven by actual use cases?
If such, it would be good to have a couple of sites at hand that currently
expose such checklist or process information.
> >> >>
> >> >> Martin
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sep 9, 2013, at 4:33 PM, Jason Douglas wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Yipes. I thought this thread was just about understanding "howto"
content pages in a structured way. Process modeling is a rat hole and way
out of scope, IMO.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 4:17 AM, Martin Hepp <
martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Sep 9, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Tallyfy wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Are Wil and Jan members of this list?
> >> >>> I don't know, but I don't think so.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Without prejudice to some work here that may result in a simple
and web-friendly spec, I think some organisation to reach the goal of
defining explicit control flow would be highly rewarding - since it would
represent a necessary evolution beyond machine-understandable markup and
entities. How entities are a constituent of higher level goals and
processes is probably the real answer to better search. If not search, they
would be a very interesting in terms of knowledge discovery - such as being
to ask 'What happens at the Chile embassy [location]?' in Sam's example, to
use just one permutation of many possible questions. Bringing all this to a
scale such as the web would be very exciting.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> We at Tallyfy can help to define and implement Process markup,
but we are one of many others. Is there a way that a project with some
organisation can be spawned from this discussion?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>> Amit
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On 9 Sep 2013, at 11:33, Martin Hepp <
martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> All:
> >> >>>>> If you really want to embark into process modeling in schema.org,
then you should first become clear about
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> - whether you want to model processes in procedural fashion
(explicit control flow) or a declarative fashion (modeling a set of actions
and their pre- and post-conditions), and
> >> >>>>> - whether the process models should be executable by a computer
or merely documents for human consumption.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Hundreds of researchers have worked on understanding how
processes can be modeled in the context of information systems, and the
least one can say is that
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> 1. it is hard and
> >> >>>>> 2. quick, simple approaches don't work or don't scale or both.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> See e.g.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
http://www2.informatik.hu-berlin.de/top/download/publications/fahlandlmrwwz_2009_emmsad.pdf
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> for a brief overview.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Without excluding others, I think it would make a lot of sense
to involve
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Wil van der Aalst, http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~wvdaalst/
> >> >>>>> and
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Jan Mendling, http://www.wu.ac.at/infobiz/team/mendling
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> in any such draft. They both spent years of their lives into
understanding the challenges of process modeling...
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Martin
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Sep 6, 2013, at 10:04 PM, Vicki Tardif Holland wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I think a combination of Jason's suggestion of
http://schema.org/ItemList and something similar to
http://schema.org/Recipewould do the trick. The key difference is that
you probably want to specify
the step number instead of relying on page layout as parsers often discard
the order of elements.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Vicki
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Vicki Tardif Holland | Metadata Analyst | vtardif@google.com |
978-613-9630
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 7:17 AM, Tallyfy <hello@tallyfy.com>
wrote:
> >> >>>>>> "Process" sounds very promising as a purely top-level
construct, because any serial process (not related to a "thing" but maybe
with embedded references to things) can be wrapped and labelled as an
actionable container. http://schema.org/Recipe is the same concept as this,
but only relates to food recipes.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> We subscribe the Gates quote - "the future of search is verbs"
and interpret it as machines able to understand not just content, but
processes like "How to get a Chile tourist visa for British citizens" - an
ordered list of steps. Rankings for processes are also different to content
backlinks, which we are working on, as you could define pre-requisites (do
this before doing this) and chain processes after (after doing this -
continue with this).
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Could somebody help me propose this as a new item? I have no
idea where to start.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> thanks
> >> >>>>>> Amit
> >> >>>>>> http://tallyfy.com
> >> >>>>>> On Thursday, 5 September 2013 at 17:36, Sam Goto wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Maybe an ItemList (or a specialized subclass, e.g.
http://schema.org/Process) of http://schema.org/Action and its subclasses?
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Tallyfy <hello@tallyfy.com>
wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> The list may not be about a specific thing, but a process -
which could include many things. For example - the list, "How to enjoy a
great Saturday night in" might have a reference to a food - pizza AND a
movie - as an entity, etc. Granted, the example isn't the best, but it's
entirely unrelated to any specific thing.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> In the composite scenario (which might not even have any
linked entities) - I guess there might not even be a thing here at all,
it's quite specifically a set of steps with an objective. For example "What
to look out for when buying a house in London"
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> So to clarify, this isn't to enumerate objects or things into
a determined order like "Top 10" - it's to define actionable things as
steps - whether or not there's related entities.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> A
> >> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, 5 September 2013 at 17:24, Jason Douglas wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Maybe a new subclass of ItemList?
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Aside: seems like ItemListElement should have a range of
Thing so you could do structured lists (movies, steps, etc.).
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> -jason
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:44 AM, Tallyfy <hello@tallyfy.com>
wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I run a startup called http://tallyfy.com
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> We've just been enrolled into StartupChile, and aim to
launch within a few months using their help. Our homepage looks something
like this:
> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14563542/tallyfy.png
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> What we do is allow anyone to embed knowledge as steps in a
checklist or a process. Examples might be:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>  How to bake a carrot cake
> >> >>>>>>>>>>  How to change a bicycle tyre
> >> >>>>>>>>>>  What to pack if you're visiting the Amazon rainforest
> >> >>>>>>>>>>  My bucket list
> >> >>>>>>>>>> The clearest and most obvious point to make here is that
these checklists, when marked up via schema.org would be excellent ways to
present answers to questions without people going through many pages on
search engines.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> So I wanted to propose a schema for marking up a checklist
(or a process).. If there is one already - could someone point me to it?
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> If we could understand that this is a "set of steps for
doing something" - I think that would be very valuable, not just to search
but for people looking for knowledge which is actionable, not just web
pages. In other words, an actual set of steps marked up is more valuable
than a block of content (usually using <ol> or <ul> HTML) which blends into
a web page.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> We intend to do a lot more - you can measure how many
people did a checklist, how long it took on average, reviews, etc. so
perhaps those could incorporate into this schema.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> thanks
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Amit
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>>>> martin hepp
> >> >>>>> e-business & web science research group
> >> >>>>> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> e-mail: hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
> >> >>>>> phone: +49-(0)89-6004-4217
> >> >>>>> fax: +49-(0)89-6004-4620
> >> >>>>> www: http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
> >> >>>>> http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
> >> >>>>> skype: mfhepp
> >> >>>>> twitter: mfhepp
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
> >> >>>>> =================================================================
> >> >>>>> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>> martin hepp
> >> >>> e-business & web science research group
> >> >>> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
> >> >>>
> >> >>> e-mail: hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
> >> >>> phone: +49-(0)89-6004-4217
> >> >>> fax: +49-(0)89-6004-4620
> >> >>> www: http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
> >> >>> http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
> >> >>> skype: mfhepp
> >> >>> twitter: mfhepp
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
> >> >>> =================================================================
> >> >>> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
> >> >>
> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> martin hepp
> >> >> e-business & web science research group
> >> >> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
> >> >>
> >> >> e-mail: hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
> >> >> phone: +49-(0)89-6004-4217
> >> >> fax: +49-(0)89-6004-4620
> >> >> www: http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
> >> >> http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
> >> >> skype: mfhepp
> >> >> twitter: mfhepp
> >> >>
> >> >> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
> >> >> =================================================================
> >> >> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
> >> >
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> martin hepp
> >> e-business & web science research group
> >> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
> >>
> >> e-mail:  hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
> >> phone:   +49-(0)89-6004-4217
> >> fax:     +49-(0)89-6004-4620
> >> www:     http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
> >>          http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
> >> skype:   mfhepp
> >> twitter: mfhepp
> >>
> >> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
> >> =================================================================
> >> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
Received on Tuesday, 10 September 2013 12:19:11 UTC

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