W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-vocabs@w3.org > September 2013

Re: Semantically marking up a "checklist" or process

From: Jason Douglas <jasondouglas@google.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 07:33:12 -0700
Message-ID: <CAEiKvUAU_7XzmvP8UOT_K9aXGFNnOxOGqHdQP8AT1ZD9UGqYpQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Martin Hepp <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>
Cc: Tallyfy <hello@tallyfy.com>, PublicVocabs <public-vocabs@w3.org>, Vicki Tardif Holland <vtardif@google.com>, Sam Goto <goto@google.com>
Yipes.  I thought this thread was just about understanding "howto" content
pages in a structured way.  Process modeling is a rat hole and way out of
scope, IMO.


On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 4:17 AM, Martin Hepp <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
> wrote:

>
> On Sep 9, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Tallyfy wrote:
>
> > Are Wil and Jan members of this list?
> >
> I don't know, but I don't think so.
>
> > Without prejudice to some work here that may result in a simple and
> web-friendly spec, I think some organisation to reach the goal of defining
> explicit control flow would be highly rewarding -  since it would represent
> a necessary evolution beyond machine-understandable markup and entities.
> How entities are a constituent of higher level goals and processes is
> probably the real answer to better search. If not search, they would be a
> very interesting in terms of knowledge discovery - such as being to ask
> 'What happens at the Chile embassy [location]?' in Sam's example, to use
> just one permutation of many possible questions. Bringing all this to a
> scale such as the web would be very exciting.
> >
> > We at Tallyfy can help to define and implement Process markup, but we
> are one of many others. Is there a way that a project with some
> organisation can be spawned from this discussion?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Amit
> >
> > On 9 Sep 2013, at 11:33, Martin Hepp <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> All:
> >> If you really want to embark into process modeling in schema.org, then
> you should first become clear about
> >>
> >> - whether you want to model processes in procedural fashion (explicit
> control flow) or a declarative fashion (modeling a set of actions and their
> pre- and post-conditions), and
> >> - whether the process models should be executable by a computer or
> merely documents for human consumption.
> >>
> >> Hundreds of researchers have worked on understanding how processes can
> be modeled in the context of information systems, and the least one can say
> is that
> >>
> >> 1. it is hard and
> >> 2. quick, simple approaches don't work or don't scale or both.
> >>
> >> See e.g.
> >>
> >>
> http://www2.informatik.hu-berlin.de/top/download/publications/fahlandlmrwwz_2009_emmsad.pdf
> >>
> >> for a brief overview.
> >>
> >> Without excluding others, I think it would make a lot of sense to
> involve
> >>
> >>   Wil van der Aalst,  http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~wvdaalst/
> >> and
> >>
> >>   Jan Mendling, http://www.wu.ac.at/infobiz/team/mendling
> >>
> >> in any such draft. They both spent years of their lives into
> understanding the challenges of process modeling...
> >>
> >>
> >> Martin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sep 6, 2013, at 10:04 PM, Vicki Tardif Holland wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think a combination of Jason's suggestion of
> http://schema.org/ItemList and something similar to
> http://schema.org/Recipe would do the trick. The key difference is that
> you probably want to specify the step number instead of relying on page
> layout as parsers often discard the order of elements.
> >>>
> >>> Vicki
> >>>
> >>> Vicki Tardif Holland | Metadata Analyst | vtardif@google.com |
> 978-613-9630
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 7:17 AM, Tallyfy <hello@tallyfy.com> wrote:
> >>> "Process" sounds very promising as a purely top-level construct,
> because any serial process (not related to a "thing" but maybe with
> embedded references to things) can be wrapped and labelled as an actionable
> container. http://schema.org/Recipe is the same concept as this, but only
> relates to food recipes.
> >>>
> >>> We subscribe the Gates quote - "the future of search is verbs" and
> interpret it as machines able to understand not just content, but processes
> like "How to get a Chile tourist visa for British citizens" - an ordered
> list of steps. Rankings for processes are also different to content
> backlinks, which we are working on, as you could define pre-requisites (do
> this before doing this) and chain processes after (after doing this -
> continue with this).
> >>>
> >>> Could somebody help me propose this as a new item? I have no idea
> where to start.
> >>>
> >>> thanks
> >>> Amit
> >>> http://tallyfy.com
> >>> On Thursday, 5 September 2013 at 17:36, Sam Goto wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Maybe an ItemList (or a specialized subclass, e.g.
> http://schema.org/Process) of http://schema.org/Action and its subclasses?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Tallyfy <hello@tallyfy.com> wrote:
> >>>>> The list may not be about a specific thing, but a process - which
> could include many things. For example - the list, "How to enjoy a great
> Saturday night in" might have a reference to a food - pizza AND a movie -
> as an entity, etc. Granted, the example isn't the best, but it's entirely
> unrelated to any specific thing.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the composite scenario (which might not even have any linked
> entities) - I guess there might not even be a thing here at all, it's quite
> specifically a set of steps with an objective. For example "What to look
> out for when buying a house in London"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So to clarify, this isn't to enumerate objects or things into a
> determined order like "Top 10" - it's to define actionable things as steps
> - whether or not there's related entities.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A
> >>>>> On Thursday, 5 September 2013 at 17:24, Jason Douglas wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Maybe a new subclass of ItemList?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Aside: seems like ItemListElement should have a range of Thing so
> you could do structured lists (movies, steps, etc.).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -jason
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:44 AM, Tallyfy <hello@tallyfy.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi everyone,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I run a startup called http://tallyfy.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We've just been enrolled into StartupChile, and aim to launch
> within a few months using their help. Our homepage looks something like
> this:
> >>>>>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14563542/tallyfy.png
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What we do is allow anyone to embed knowledge as steps in a
> checklist or a process. Examples might be:
> >>>>>>>    How to bake a carrot cake
> >>>>>>>    How to change a bicycle tyre
> >>>>>>>    What to pack if you're visiting the Amazon rainforest
> >>>>>>>    My bucket list
> >>>>>>> The clearest and most obvious point to make here is that these
> checklists, when marked up via schema.org would be excellent ways to
> present answers to questions without people going through many pages on
> search engines.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So I wanted to propose a schema for marking up a checklist (or a
> process).. If there is one already - could someone point me to it?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If we could understand that this is a "set of steps for doing
> something" - I think that would be very valuable, not just to search but
> for people looking for knowledge which is actionable, not just web pages.
> In other words, an actual set of steps marked up is more valuable than a
> block of content (usually using <ol> or <ul> HTML) which blends into a web
> page.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We intend to do a lot more - you can measure how many people did a
> checklist, how long it took on average, reviews, etc. so perhaps those
> could incorporate into this schema.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> thanks
> >>>>>>> Amit
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> martin hepp
> >> e-business & web science research group
> >> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
> >>
> >> e-mail:  hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
> >> phone:   +49-(0)89-6004-4217
> >> fax:     +49-(0)89-6004-4620
> >> www:     http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
> >>        http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
> >> skype:   mfhepp
> >> twitter: mfhepp
> >>
> >> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
> >> =================================================================
> >> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> martin hepp
> e-business & web science research group
> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>
> e-mail:  hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
> phone:   +49-(0)89-6004-4217
> fax:     +49-(0)89-6004-4620
> www:     http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>          http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
> skype:   mfhepp
> twitter: mfhepp
>
> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
> =================================================================
> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>
>
>
>
Received on Monday, 9 September 2013 14:33:41 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 21:29:30 UTC