W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-vocabs@w3.org > October 2013

RE: SKOS for schema.org proposal for discussion

From: Evain, Jean-Pierre <evain@ebu.ch>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 18:49:16 +0000
To: 'Martin Hepp' <martin.hepp@unibw.de>
CC: 'Amanda Vizedom' <amanda.vizedom@gmail.com>, Stéphane Corlosquet <scorlosquet@gmail.com>, Guha <guha@google.com>, Dan Brickley <danbri@danbri.org>, jean delahousse <delahousse.jean@gmail.com>, "public-vocabs@w3.org" <public-vocabs@w3.org>
Message-ID: <A71D9E70FCEE5E40A5EAA598864E605705E11710@maildrs.gva.ebu.ch>
What means being "right" versus renaming something that is widely understood and adopted?

Surely not in the sense of owl:class???? Surely sounds a bit definitive here.

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Hepp [mailto:martin.hepp@unibw.de] 
Sent: lundi, 7. octobre 2013 20:23
To: Evain, Jean-Pierre
Cc: 'Amanda Vizedom'; Stéphane Corlosquet; Guha; Dan Brickley; jean delahousse; public-vocabs@w3.org
Subject: Re: SKOS for schema.org proposal for discussion

I think you shoot to quickly:
On Oct 7, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Evain, Jean-Pierre wrote:

> Frankly speaking I would not change the name of concept into something else or SkosConcept would cause less damage.
>  
> If we do this then we change "concept" into "peanuts", then "broader" into "larger" or "narrower" into "thinner", and why not "prefLabel" (defined in applications as a subproperty of rdfs:label) into "name" , etc.
>  
Trying to find a name for the new element that is precise and intuitive for a broad audience of adopters is a honorable attempt. Being "right" does not buy anything here, since beautiful specifications do not ensure correct usage in a largely distributed system as the WWW. And the proposed names are more reasonable than what you make out of it.

> At the end of the day, adopting SKOS in schema.org will have lost all its sense.
Why? The URI of the concept is just a name. Beneath the hood, it remains possible to link this to SKOS with ease.

>  
> BTW, "concept" is actually a "class"

Surely not in the sense of owl:Class. One can work with the notion of a concept without a the notion of something being an instance of that.

Martin


>  
> Jean-Pierre
>  
> From: Amanda Vizedom [mailto:amanda.vizedom@gmail.com]
> Sent: lundi, 7. octobre 2013 19:55
> To: Stéphane Corlosquet
> Cc: Guha; Dan Brickley; jean delahousse; public-vocabs@w3.org
> Subject: Re: SKOS for schema.org proposal for discussion
>  
> Perhaps the most dramatic case occurs in biological ontologies; some bioontology communities use 'concept' to mean 'class'.  I've seen this create serious communication and methodology problems when folks whose only ontology training or experience comes from such communities join ontology / semantic technology projects in other domains without managerial attention to this and other community-specialized practices. 
>  
> Slightly old reference, but easy to hand: 
> http://journals2005.pasteur.ac.ir/NB/23(9)/1095%20-%201098.pdf
>  
> 
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Stéphane Corlosquet <scorlosquet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you have pointers or references to these Knowledge Representation systems where Concept is not the same as skos:Concept? Isn't that considered an edge case? How popular are these compared to the regular use of Concept (as in SKOS). Isn't that a caveat that there "related communities" are aware of and could live with?
>  
> Steph.
>  
> 
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Guha <guha@google.com> wrote:
> Good point. Maybe not SkosConcept, but something else. My fear is the word 'Concept' is so general, that it will be mistaken.  For example, there are kinds of Knowledge Representation systems where Concept is the equivalent of what is called 'Resource' in RDF. I absolutely want it as a universal type, I am just worried about folks in related communities misunderstanding it.
>  
> guha
>  
> 
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Stéphane Corlosquet <scorlosquet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Isn't that a slippery slope towards having namespaces in schema.org? (e.g.. FoafPerson, GrProduct). What's the intention here? Keep http://schema.org/Concept in case we want to have a generic 'Concept' type later? What's making this proposal too Skos specific that it cannot fulfill the generic type of 'Concept'? Why not just tell people to use skos:Concept then (from the skos namespace)? 
>  
> I don't see the benefits of introducing a namespace/provenance in the type. I think it would make it confusing and require people to have knowledge about the origin vocabulary where the term came from, which goes agasint the goals of schema.org (might as well just use the original term namespace). Also, namespacing terms isn't something that has been done before in schema.org.
>  
> Steph.
>  
> 
> On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 5:49 PM, Guha <guha@google.com> wrote:
> Could we rename 'Concept', which sounds too general, to SkosConcept or something like that?
>  
> Would be great to see a worked out example.
>  
> guha
>  
> 
> On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Stéphane Corlosquet <scorlosquet@gmail..com> wrote:
> I've added the SKOS proposal sent by Jean Delahousse to the wiki [1] and converted it to a schema.org RDFS document [2].
>  
> We should probably discuss this proposal further now that's it's on the wiki. 
>  
> Steph.
>  
> [1] http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/SKOS
> [2] 
> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/raw-file/tip/schema.org/ext/skos.html
>  
>  
> 
> On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 5:49 PM, Dan Brickley <danbri@danbri.org> wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> On 10 January 2013 11:13, jean delahousse <delahousse.jean@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have worked on a integration of SKOS into Schema.org.
> >
> > The idea is to be able to publish pages about concepts described in 
> > a controled vocabulary and to describe the controlled vocabulary itself.
> > Use case can be the publication of a library controlled vocabulary 
> > as Rameau from the French National Library 
> > (http://data.bnf.fr/13318366/musique/) or authorities by Library of 
> > Congress
> > (http://id.loc.gov/authorities/subjects/sh2003003686.html) , or a 
> > glossary in a web site.
> >
> > I attached the draft. I would be happy to go on with this project 
> > with some of you.
> 
> Thanks for making a concrete proposal - this is really positive! Your 
> reward is that I ask something more from you ;)
> 
> Would you have time to make an HTML+RDFa+RDFS version of this proposal?
> 
> There are some examples in our WebSchemas area of W3C Mercurial repo, here:
> 
> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webschema/file/default/schema.org/ext
> 
> I hope they are almost self-explanatory. We can get you access or just 
> send along HTML by mail/wiki. If you don't have time I 100% 
> understand, but I'm trying to build a workflow here that doesn't 
> suffer from my being a bottleneck, so hopefully this machine-readable 
> proposals mechanism will help...
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
>  
> --
> Steph.
>  
> 
> 
>  
> --
> Steph.
>  
> 
> 
>  
> --
> Steph.
>  
> 
> 
> **************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.. 
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the system 
> manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been 
> swept by the mailgateway
> **************************************************
> 

--------------------------------------------------------
martin hepp
e-business & web science research group
universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen

e-mail:  hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
phone:   +49-(0)89-6004-4217
fax:     +49-(0)89-6004-4620
www:     http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
         http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
skype:   mfhepp 
twitter: mfhepp

Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
=================================================================
* Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by the mailgateway
**************************************************
Received on Monday, 7 October 2013 18:49:59 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 21:29:32 UTC