- From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
- Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 16:29:22 +0000
- To: Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <D968D1DE.4AACB%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all for attending todays TTWG meeting. Minutes can be found in HTML format at https://www.w3.org/2019/08/01-tt-minutes.html
In text format:
[1]W3C
[1] https://www.w3.org/
Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
01 August 2019
[2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.
[2] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/53
[3] https://www.w3.org/2019/08/01-tt-irc
Attendees
Present
Andreas, Atsushi, Atsushi_irc-only, Cyril, Gary, Glenn,
Nigel, Philippe, Pierre
Regrets
none
Chair
Nigel
Scribe
cyril, nigel
Contents
* [4]Meeting minutes
1. [5]This meeting
2. [6]WebVTT
3. [7]New snapshot with new at-risk items webvtt#460
4. [8]Eliminate inconsistent use of
xsd:nonNegativeInteger (#983). w3c/ttml2#1135
5. [9]TTML Tests
6. [10]3D extensions
7. [11]TTML over RTP IETF draft
8. [12]TPAC Planning
9. [13]TTWG Charter status update
10. [14]Karaoke module
11. [15]Meeting close
Meeting minutes
Log: [16]https://www.w3.org/2019/08/01-tt-irc
[16] https://www.w3.org/2019/08/01-tt-irc
<atsushi> no mic today, sorry
This meeting
Nigel: [iterates through agenda]
Nigel: AOB or other points
Glenn: 10 seconds on PR #1096 on TTML2
Nigel: OK
Glenn: If we can handle that right now, all I want to do is
remind Cyril to review it.
Cyril: I know, I will get to it today.
Glenn: Thank you, that's all.
WebVTT
Gary: The main thing that's left is basically deciding if PR
#460 is good to go and I can start to work with Philippe
to get it through the CR process.
New snapshot with new at-risk items webvtt#460
github: [17]https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/pull/460
[17] https://github.com/w3c/webvtt/pull/460
Gary: This has the change for making the region lines a regular
long from unsigned long
as well as the change to clamp the lines property to the
closest value that can be represented
It also adds the at-risk items.
Nigel: Looks like the last significant change was 14 days ago
and the positive review was older.
Gary: Yes, this incorporates changes that Silvia has also
approved from other PRs.
The biggest change is the rounding, where I looked at the
HTML spec to see how to do it and want someone
else to look at it and check it's okay.
Nigel: Nobody has done that yet?
Gary: Silvia approved #470 which was the PR that introduced
this, nobody else has.
If we're okay with just Silvia then we can go ahead.
Nigel: #470 was 17 days ago and Silvia approved it the same
day.
In this situation it has had 2 weeks and a positive review so
we normally say go ahead and do it.
Gary: Awesome I'll go ahead then.
Nigel: What's the state of the tests for this?
Gary: I need to update the Lines PR to match it, to split the
rounded and clamped/unclamped values but now we don't
need to verify the unclamped values and can delete that
portion.
I was going to use the CR time to look through and fix VTT.js
implementation and whatnot to get the other things in
the IR to pass.
Nigel: From our normal process we can just go ahead at this
point. Any objections?
Nigel: Silence, so go ahead.
Gary: Then I'll proceed, thanks.
Eliminate inconsistent use of xsd:nonNegativeInteger (#983).
w3c/ttml2#1135
github: [18]https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1135
[18] https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/1135
Nigel: I added this to the agenda to discuss why we would move
away from XSD defined types because generally
speaking I feel we should use XSD defined types where they
meet our needs.
nigel: this is your proposal glenn
the first part is about the motivation
the issue says there is non-consistency
and the internal type does permit "-0"
the consistency is a bit of a problem
glenn: the introduction of xsd nonNegative in 3 places
the data @length, chunk @length, and isd @size
was an oversight from my side
I failed to record that we had a non-negative-integer
if you look at TTML2 1st
you'll find 17 matches on <digit+>
one of them is the definition of non-negative-integer
the only reason that we might want to have the xsd
nonNegative is if we want +0 and -0 and +X be equal to X
there is no reason to allow +0 or -0
when we have a perfectly good type used in 17 places
the other item is the introduction of xsd positiveInteger on
the @version on isd
in the text of the specification it already says the value
must be greater than 0
like repeatCount
or numerator and denominator and framerate ...
we should use the same mechanism
I checked in today a series of test
based on the proposed change
I don't see a risk of making this non-backwards compatible
change
I'm very confident it's not going to affect anybody
nigel: I did a quick scan
and in the place where the internal type is used, it would
make no sense to use the xsd type
<Zakim> nigel, you wanted to note that in some places allowing
the sign in numbers would be nonsensical, like in RGB values
nigel: although I like the idea of using xsd types, I'm happy
to make this change
atai2: I want to understand the change
so it's replacing a type with a more relaxed type
that would increase the number of false positive during
validation
nigel: we add pattern constraints on some xsd strings
maybe we could do that here too
glenn: if we remove the optional sign, it's restricting the
number of lexical representations, no increasing it
one of the recent commit was to add more pattern
I agree the current schema had been a bit inconsistent in
that regard
but I note that the schema is not normative
my intent in this PR is to make things a bit more consistent
pal: do these changes make TTML closer to CSS?
glenn: none of these attributes are in the domain of CSS, they
are not properties
pal: so I don't have a strong opinion
nigel: any objection to go ahead with this change?
hearing none, let's proceed
glenn: I would appreciate your final review nigel
like missing pattern
TTML Tests
nigel: I want to alert people that there are a number of open
PRs on TTML test repo
I like the approach of adding tests with PR on the spec
a concrete example was about base64 encoded chunks of data
where the spec change is to strip off spaces before passing
it to the decoder
and test does that by applying character entities
that was a good thought exercise
please do take a look at them and see if they match your
expectations
3D extensions
nigel: andreas wanted some clarifications about the next steps
atai2: we continued the discussion for the requirements for 360
subtitles
we are in a state where we can start drafting
some specification text
the question is about the right procedure
I think that more people outside of this group are interested
and may want to contribute
it may be difficult to contribute
there was the option to have a discussion in the WICG
my thinking is to bring it to that CG
but I don't know how it connects to this WG
I want to make an explainer for the tag
and draft a TTML module
I could start over as a TTML module in the CG for example
<plh> -[19]Requirements for subtitles and text in WebXR
[19] https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/40
atai2: and as plh is on the call, it'd be good to have a
discussion on the interaction between the groups
<atsushi> my understanding of WICG is quite wide range of
gathering (and no strong organization), and it should be fine
to file new proposal as issue to the repository
nigel: not sure why it would be difficult for people to
contribute?
are they not W3C members?
atai2: the idea is that people active in W3C could contribute
and would be motivated to contribute
and having another place than the TTWG would be helpful for
that
and also for non-member
they can comment on github issues but that's not sufficient,
they would need to be invited members
so having a community group would be helpful
plh: the link above is to where some discussions are happening
in terms of doing incubation in CG, it is encouraged
using WICG means you don't have to create a new CG
people in the CG if they make an actual contribution will
have to adhere to the contributing agreement
if you want to have people from accessibility, the difficulty
is to find the right time to switch to a WG
and there is no formula for that
if it is still an idea and trying different options, a CG is
fine
if it becomes a very serious idea, and you need a WG, at that
time we need to check if the TTWG is good or not
there was an inclusive XR workshop happening in NY and there
was interest and discussions on captioning
the CG option is the safest approach in my opinion
atai2: the idea is quite clear
the requirements got clearer
we need more experts on making it work
we have a pretty good scope
plh: the challenge is making sure that the right people are
there
most of the people were not aware that W3C was working on
that
atai2: the TTML module would define a basic
vocabulary
plh: you are assuming people want to use TTML
atai2: it's obvious
plh: to you, may not to everybody
atai2: in the Web Community call, that was the response
we found no other group or context to specify a solution for
this requirement
plh: it seems the choice is either the WICG or to create your
own CG
atai2: no the choice is either the WICG or the TTWG directly
in the community group, we might attract more experts
atai2: one more question
nigel asked for explainers for TTML
are there explainers for other features submitted to TTML?
nigel: the one for the AD profile exists
<nigel> [20]TAG template for Explainers
[20] https://w3ctag.github.io/explainers
<nigel> -> [21]https://github.com/w3c/tt-reqs/wiki
[21] https://github.com/w3c/tt-reqs/wiki
cyril: the karaoke module also has an explainer
TTML over RTP IETF draft
nigel: there is an IETF process point called WGLC (last call)
at the IETF 105 meeting, this was brought up
and the WGLC lapsed without comment
the chair asked that even if there was no comment
that this group would say that all comments have been taken
into account
what I propose to do
is to say that there are no further comment
do people agree or take extra time?
nigel: all of Mike's comments have been addressed
hearing nothing more, I will take that as Yes, TTWG has no
further comments on the document
TPAC Planning
<nigel> [22]TPAC 2019 planning wiki
[22] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2019
nigel: there is now a wiki page, thanks atsushi
pal: on the topic of liaisons and TPAC
what's happening to add a new subtitle class to CLDR
the unicode effort to create/document characteristics of
languages across the world
<nigel> [23]Our ticket on Unicode CLDR
[23] https://unicode-org.atlassian.net/browse/CLDR-8915
pal: today CLDR has examples of character used for all
languages
they don't include examples for subtitles
they had made a liaison
and we recommended unicode to add examples to CLDR
that was 4 years ago
maybe TPAC is a good time to revive that
nigel: I checked a ticket on CLDR and some comments were made
in May
Addison asked for some more work
happy to add this topic at TPAC
pal: maybe we should follow up before?
plh: do we need Addison or Richard Ishida?
glenn: or Mark Davis from Google
nigel: I'll give myself a task to get in touch with Addison
<nigel> [24]TTWG issue 59
[24] https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/59
nigel: both things make sense: get in touch and follow up at
TPAC
nigel: we will be collecting topics for TPAC, please add you
names to the participants list
if you haven't registered yet, please do
registration is only until Sept 6th
glenn: I'm registered
TTWG Charter status update
plh: the good news is that I had approval from the Director
yesterday
I'm in the process of preparing the call for review
for the AC
<plh> [25]https://www.w3.org/2019/08/ttwg-proposed-charter.html
[25] https://www.w3.org/2019/08/ttwg-proposed-charter.html
plh: I merged the PR as asked by the director
it's ready to ship for review
nigel: we did not seem completely happy with some parts of it
(the review part)
we should make sure we look at that
plh: yes
you may grumble about the horizontal review
nigel: I see you added "first" in "before first entering CR"
addressing my issue, thank you for that.
plh: people can make comments as part of the AC review
Karaoke module
Cyril: Reminder please look at this - I have received no
comments yet
Pierre: Is there an easy way to preview it?
Cyril: I will make sure there's a render somewhere.
Pierre: Thanks
Meeting close
Nigel: Thanks everyone, we're at time and have just completed
the agenda. See you next week. [adjourns meeting]
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
Bert Bos's [26]scribe.perl version Mon Apr 15 13:11:59 2019
UTC, a reimplementation of David Booth's [27]scribe.perl. See
[28]history.
[26] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
[27] https://dev.w3.org/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[28] https://github.com/w3c/scribe2/commits/master/scribe.perl
Received on Thursday, 1 August 2019 16:29:48 UTC