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{minutes} TTWG Meeting 27/11/2014

From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 16:29:50 +0000
To: TTWG <public-tt@w3.org>
Message-ID: <D09CFED2.171E9%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all who attended today's meeting. Minutes in HTML format can be found at http://www.w3.org/2014/11/27-tt-minutes.html and in text format below.

TTML2 publication timeline

Please note the currently proposed timeline for TTML2 publication, taking into account the 'frozen' pre-FPWD period discussed at the end of the meeting, is:

Issues closure

Thu 11th December TTWG meeting: if no unresolved comments, close the currently Pending Review Issues on TTML2 at [PRI] based on a preliminary review. Those are the issues numbered: 10, 230, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 273, 287, 289, 290, 291 and 292. Please review the solutions in the current editor's draft [TTML2ED]. Note that closure now will not prevent issues from being reopened or new related issues from being opened later for any reason, but allows us to verify that some apparently suitable solution has been implemented.

[PRI] https://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/pendingreview

[TTML2ED] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/default/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html


More issues are likely to be marked as Pending Review in the coming month.

Working Drafts

4th Jan 2015: Editor's draft 'frozen' for group review prior to publication as FPWD
w/c 18th Jan 2015: Publish FPWD
Thu 12th Feb 2015: any additions/edits deferred from FPWD to have been completed or deferred until v.next
Tue 3rd Mar 2015: Publish updated WD 'feature complete'
Tue 3rd-Fri 6th Mar inclusive: Chair to send Wide Review requests to internal and external groups
Fri 17th April: WD review period to end

After this, process comments, agree CR exit criteria,request transition to CR

Minutes in text format:


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/


                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

27 Nov 2014

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2014/11/27-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          glenn, nigel, Andreas, pal, Frans

   Regrets
          mdolan, tmichel, courtney

   Chair
          nigel

   Scribe
          nigel

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]This meeting
         2. [5]IMSC 1 transition to CR
         3. [6]Action Items
         4. [7]Issues
         5. [8]Change Proposals
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 27 November 2014

This meeting

   nigel: Plan for TTML2 publication timeline has been discussed.
   Proposal is as follows:
   ... W/c 4th Jan 2015: Publish FPWD
   ... Thu 29th Jan 2015: any additions/edits deferred from FPWD
   to have been completed or deferred until v.next
   ... Tue 17th Feb 2015: Publish updated WD 'feature complete'
   ... Tue 17th-Fri 20th Feb inclusive: Chair to send Wide Review
   requests to internal and external groups
   ... Fri 3rd March: WD review period to end
   ... After this, process comments, agree CR exit criteria,
   request transition to CR
   ... It would be good for anyone who may be aware of potential
   liaison partners who have meetings during or near
   ... the review period to highlight those so we can be as
   inclusive as possible.

   <scribe> scribeNick: nigel

IMSC 1 transition to CR

   nigel: I have made the request, we have a meeting planned with
   the Director on Wednesday 3rd Dec
   ... The Disposition of Comments is looking good:
   [10]https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/34314/WD-ttm

   l-imsc1-20140930/doc/
   ... The edited CR incorporates the exit criteria that we agreed
   at TPAC.

     [10] https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/34314/WD-ttml-imsc1-20140930/doc/


   action-351?

   <trackbot> action-351 -- Thierry Michel to Draft transition
   request for IMSC 1 for cr -- due 2014-11-27 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [11]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/351


     [11] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/351


   close action-351

   <trackbot> Closed action-351.

   action-352?

   <trackbot> action-352 -- Thierry Michel to Organise a meeting
   with plh, nigel, the director and the editor of imsc 1 -- due
   2014-11-27 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [12]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/352


     [12] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/352


   close action-352

   <trackbot> Closed action-352.

   action-353?

   <trackbot> action-353 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Update imsc
   1 ed for cr with exit criteria wording -- due 2014-11-27 --
   OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [13]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/353


     [13] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/353


   close action-353

   <trackbot> Closed action-353.

   action-333?

   <trackbot> action-333 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Create a one
   pager to cover the plan for the director's meeting for taking
   imsc1 to cr. -- due 2014-11-27 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [14]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/333


     [14] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/333


Action Items

   action-332?

   <trackbot> action-332 -- Glenn Adams to Add schema support for
   ISD vocabulary -- due 2014-10-27 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [15]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/332


     [15] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/332


   group: no further progress on actions

Issues

   issue-357?

   <trackbot> issue-357 -- Add support for horizontal in vertical
   (tate-chu-yoko). -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [16]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/357


     [16] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/357


   issue-229?

   <trackbot> issue-229 -- Mixed vertical-horizontal progression
   direction -- open

   <trackbot>
   [17]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/229


     [17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/229


   <scribe> ACTION: glenn resolve duplication between issue-357
   and issue-229 [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/27-tt-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-355 - Resolve duplication between
   issue-357 and issue-229 [on Glenn Adams - due 2014-12-04].

   issue-354?

   <trackbot> issue-354 -- Add support for letter spacing style
   semantics -- closed

   <trackbot>
   [19]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/354


     [19] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/354


   glenn: I closed this as a duplicate of issue-236 after last
   week's meeting

   issue-10?

   <trackbot> issue-10 -- Allowing pointers to pre-rendered audio
   forms of elements -- pending review

   <trackbot>
   [20]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/10


     [20] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/10


   glenn: Most of these pending review issues are resolved in the
   recent edits to TTML2

   nigel: These changes are very recent and there are lots of them
   so we should give a decent chance for folk to review them

   <scribe> ACTION: nigel Request review of TTML2 pending review
   issues from group [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/27-tt-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-356 - Request review of ttml2 pending
   review issues from group [on Nigel Megitt - due 2014-12-04].

   issue-22?

   <trackbot> issue-22 -- window fade in/out not supported? --
   pending review

   <trackbot>
   [22]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/22


     [22] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/22


   glenn: This has been addressed since August 2013.
   ... Now that we have the animate element we have continuous
   support for fade in/out

   close issue-22

   <trackbot> Closed issue-22.

   glenn: A large class of the currently pending review issues are
   metadata related. I added support for enumerated
   ... named metadata items, which cover 12 of those issues at
   least, and target bar data, aspect ratio, target format, active
   format descriptor.
   ... Forced display (issue-230) is addressed with the condition
   attribute and the parameter function that allows
   ... parameters defined in the document processing context to be
   queried.
   ... The new font element covers issue-273.
   ... The binary data tunnelling from issue-287 is covered by the
   data element.

   pal: Here's a use case: I create a document using a number of
   audio/font/image resources and I'd like to author it once
   ... and allow the distribution across many different platforms.
   Some of them will embed the resource in a multiplex,
   ... e.g. in an ISOBMFF or MXF multiplex. Others will require
   the processor to retrieve the resource over the internet. So
   ... how do I craft the document so I don't have to reauthor it
   dependent on platform? Is there a level of indirection to
   ... allow resolution of location?

   glenn: Yes, there is indirection at a couple of levels. The
   main level is through the use of the source element child of

   <glenn>
   [23]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml2/spec/ttml2.h

   tml#embedded-content-vocabulary-font

     [23] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html#embedded-content-vocabulary-font


   glenn: embedded content elements such as image, font or audio.
   For example let's look at font (URL above)
   ... There's an example with a font element inside the resources
   element, with two children, an external resource URL and
   ... an internal data element with an inline definition. By
   using multiple sources the semantics of source, which I need to
   ... elaborate a bit more, lets you walk down the list of
   sources and resolve the first one that can be resolved.
   ... That's one form of indirection.

   pal: For font, there's a unique reference back to the
   fontFamily. What would it be for an image or audio?

   glenn: The only reason for a reference to font, which is in
   fact not required, and if not specified will use the name of
   the
   ... family in the font that it resolves to. However if you want
   3 different sources with different family names A, B and C then
   ... that would present a problem for how you refer to the font
   in each family. So you'd write in a label with a new family,
   ... then the referenced resource would be treated as having the
   e.g. "myFont" family. And you'd refer to that family name
   ... in the style as "myFont". I have some further editorial
   work to do on the font selection semantics.
   ... In the case of image, we don't refer to images using a name
   like a family name. There are two places where images
   ... can be referenced in the newest draft. Image can be a child
   of a resources element or a div/p/span. Also the new
   ... backgroundImage style may refer to an image. In those cases
   the reference mechanism is either by embedding the
   ... image directly inline in a div, p or span, or it could
   refer to an image element as a child of the resources element,
   or
   ... a source element to refer to an external image. There are
   some examples under image which show an external resource,
   ... a source child and in the third example an embedded case
   where there are two sources, one is an external reference
   ... and the other is embedded, and the first resolvable one
   should be used.

   pal: How do I uniquely identify an image?

   glenn: You'd put an xml:id on the image element to refer to it.
   For example an image in the resources element, like
   ... xml:id="myImage" then you'd refer to it later as
   src="#myImage". In the second example I do something like that.
   ... That's a fragment identifier.

   pal: How would you refer to that image in an actual div for
   example?
   ... (in the second example)

   glenn: To display in a div as content: it could be a background
   image or a content element. If you put an image element
   ... in the content of a div that becomes a content image as
   opposed to a background image. That works like the img element
   ... in html. Whereas the background image is referenced using
   the backgroundImage style property. The semantic distinction
   ... between them is that background images should never be used
   to represent content, that should only be done in a content
   ... image. I know that's different than SMPTE-TT and so forth.

   pal: Sure, that's a different issue.

   glenn: So let's say you want a background image on a region
   instead of a colour.
   ... In the second example I should wrap the data element in
   <head><resources> and show that the <image> element
   ... is in a div to make that clearer.

   <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to ask about nested items

   nigel: I was wondering if the item element should be able to
   contain 0 or more item elements or alternatively PCDATA
   ... At the moment you can't structure the item data except as a
   flat list.

   glenn: I was contemplating that. In EBU-TT there's translator,
   translator contact, editor and editor contact, and one might
   ... want to group a contact closely with the translator or
   editor. I could make it either 0..* item children OR PCDATA.

   atai: Why is this ttm:item element used instead of including
   the metadata directly as individual elements?

   glenn: Why generic? Because I view element proliferation as a
   very bad thing. I try to minimise the introduction of new
   ... elements wherever possible unless there's an overriding
   reason not to take the generic approach. One negative approach
   ... is you can't use the schema mechanism to validate multiple
   items that use different syntax.

   nigel: In XSD 1.1 you can use assertions to do that.

   glenn: Also in Relax next generation and RNC can do it.

   atai: That's true, but not in XSD 1.0.

   glenn: A generic approach needs less spec modification for
   experimentation. You just have to define a new name.
   ... I made the names either tokens or URIs so anyone could
   define a new URI and the syntax of the value.

   atai: So to extend the value list and use a different one do
   you have to prefix it with x- ?

   glenn: You'd either use a URI or an x- prefix.

   nigel: I wonder how long is reasonable as a timeline for
   closing the issues?

   glenn: I'd say a week or so for preliminary review.

   nigel: I'll target 11th December.

   pal: Are we stable for the review?

   glenn: I'd call it a preliminary review of the editor's draft,
   so anything could still change!

   pal: So far I've done cursory review. My plan is to do a
   thorough review once we've "frozen" it for FPWD.

   glenn: The key here is to be able to close out the issues so
   that I know when the task list is complete.
   ... We can always reopen an issue if it's not handled
   adequately. I'd prefer to be aggressive in closing issues and
   reopening
   ... or opening new issues rather than leaving them handing as
   Pending Review.

   nigel: There isn't much time to review after the FPWD version
   is ready, but there is time between FPWD and next WD.

   pal: The point is knowing when the document is stable enough to
   review.

   glenn: My plan is to make a FPWD that has all of the syntactic
   elements present, even if they then change on further
   ... review.

   pal: Can we have a 'stable for publication of FPWD' date and
   give everyone a chance to review that, address the comments
   ... and then publish the FPWD.

   nigel: I can leave a pre-FPWD review period for the group
   during the first 2 weeks of January.

   glenn: To get these issues moved to closed is a different
   question. I'm fine with a week or two of preliminary review
   ... before moving to Closed. If later on, on further review,
   there are problems then issues can be opened or reopened.

   pal: I think that makes sense especially before FPWD.

Change Proposals

   glenn: I've updated some of the Change Proposals to Pending
   Review where all of their Issues are Pending Review.
   ... We can move them to Closed when we've closed the issues in
   a couple of weeks.

   nigel: To summarise the TTML2 plan, I'll add a 2 week period at
   the beginning of January for pre-FPWD review,
   ... and we'll target all the currently Pending Review issues
   for closure on 11th December.
   ... Thanks everyone, see you next week. [Adjourns meeting]

   action-356: Target 11th December for closure of pending review
   issues

   <trackbot> Notes added to action-356 Request review of ttml2
   pending review issues from group.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: glenn resolve duplication between issue-357 and
   issue-229 [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/27-tt-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: nigel Request review of TTML2 pending review
   issues from group [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/27-tt-minutes.html#action02]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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