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{minutes} TTWG Meeting 20/11/2014

From: Nigel Megitt <nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:18:20 +0000
To: Timed Text Working Group <public-tt@w3.org>
Message-ID: <D093C3C2.16864%nigel.megitt@bbc.co.uk>
Thanks all who attended today's TTWG meeting. Minutes in HTML format can be found at http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-tt-minutes.html


We made one Resolution:

RESOLUTION: We will request transition of IMSC 1 to CR.
The review period for this resolution under our Decision Process ends on 4th November.


Text format minutes:


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/


                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

20 Nov 2014

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-tt-irc


Attendees

   Present
          glenn, pal, thierry, nigel, Mike

   Regrets
          jdsmith, courtney, Frans

   Chair
          nigel

   Scribe
          nigel

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]This meeting
         2. [5]IMSC 1 review comments
         3. [6]Action Items
         4. [7]Issues
         5. [8]TTML versions
         6. [9]TTML2
     * [10]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 20 November 2014

   <scribe> scribeNick: nigel

This meeting

   nigel: Next week is a public holiday in the US, so I'm
   wondering if we can proceed.

   nigel, glenn, pal: We're available next week

   Mike: Regrets for next week

   tmichel: Regrets for next week

   nigel: We'll proceed with a meeting next week, on the 27th.
   ... AOB?

   group: no AOB raised.

   nigel: Looking ahead, I've cancelled 25th December and 1st Jan
   meetings, and we have 3 others in December,
   ... which I propose to make 1 hour unless the workload
   increases significantly.

IMSC 1 review comments

   [11]https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/34314/WD-ttm

   l-imsc1-20140930/doc/

     [11] https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/34314/WD-ttml-imsc1-20140930/doc/


   nigel: I've sent a friendly reminder to Simon Hailes requesting
   a response.

   tmichel: The other comments from chaals and cyril aren't so
   urgent because we've met their comments.

   nigel: What's the process re DoC for no-response-received?

   tmichel: We can tell the Director that the commenter didn't
   respond but we've implemented their comments.
   ... It's an issue mainly when the comment has not been fully
   addressed.
   ... You can always remind chaals and cyril if you want, but we
   can proceed regardless.
   ... Yellow on Yellow on the DoC is not so good, but Green and
   Yellow is okay.

   nigel: Does this block us from moving to CR?

   tmichel: We can always request transition and then make the
   case to the Director.

   glenn: We're not going to add TTML2 features to IMSC 1 anyway,
   so I think we should proceed regardless.

   pal: In fact we have fully addressed Simon's comments but the
   group did not agree with the comment. We do have consensus in
   the group.

   tmichel: If we think that we have fully agreed to his
   proposal...

   pal: no, we fully addressed it, but we didn't agree with it.
   How long should we leave it for Simon to respond?

   tmichel: The ending date is today, so I think in a couple of
   days we can request transition, and that actually gives us
   ... about another week. It's good that the chair has pinged
   Simon again, nicely, too. I can't see the Director objecting,
   ... since we cannot force the commenter to respond.

   PROPOSAL: To request transition of IMSC 1 to CR.

   RESOLUTION: We will request transition of IMSC 1 to CR.

   nigel: What's the next stage now that we've agreed that?

   tmichel: We have to organise a call with the Director and send
   the transition request. I can start drafting the TR.

   <scribe> ACTION: tmichel Draft Transition Request for IMSC 1
   for CR [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-tt-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-351 - Draft transition request for cr
   [on Thierry Michel - due 2014-11-27].

   <scribe> ACTION: tmichel Organise a meeting with Plh, nigel,
   the Director and the Editor of IMSC 1 [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-tt-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-352 - Organise a meeting with plh,
   nigel, the director and the editor of imsc 1 [on Thierry Michel
   - due 2014-11-27].

   tmichel: We also need the exit criteria ready for the CR.

   nigel: I had an action to draft that following our TPAC
   meeting, I'll send to pal.

   <scribe> ACTION: pal Update IMSC 1 ED for CR with exit criteria
   wording [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-tt-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-353 - Update imsc 1 ed for cr with
   exit criteria wording [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due
   2014-11-27].

   pal: This is for the discussion with the Director?

   tmichel: Yes.

   action-333?

   <trackbot> action-333 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Create a one
   pager to cover the plan for the director's meeting for taking
   imsc1 to cr. -- due 2014-10-27 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [15]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/333


     [15] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/333


   nigel: This is for my guidance during the meeting.

   tmichel: action-351 is the formal request document.

   pal: So action-333 is going to be input into that larger
   document? It was to demonstrate wide review etc.

   tmichel: I will start drafting, and if there are points I need
   extra information for then you can help me edit, or if there
   are points that are not 100% accurate.

   nigel: I think the meeting details will be richer than the
   transition doc. I would like Pierre to review Thierry's draft
   first,
   ... and then I'll send it.

   tmichel: I'll send it tomorrow.

   action-348?

   <trackbot> action-348 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Thank dvb
   for input re lc-2983 -- due 2014-11-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot>
   [16]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/348


     [16] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/348


   close action-348

   <trackbot> Closed action-348.

   action-350?

   <trackbot> action-350 -- Nigel Megitt to Set the status of the
   imsc 1 review comments -- due 2014-11-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot>
   [17]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/350


     [17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/350


   close action-350

   <trackbot> Closed action-350.

   Mike: I haven't seen the DECE response to W3C go anywhere.

   nigel: I couldn't do anything with it directly because it
   requests non-posting.

   Mike: I was expecting someone with access to the file space to
   pull the files from the link and put them on a W3C space
   ... and then post a shortened form of the response excluding
   the link.

   nigel: Where should the files go? We didn't conclude on use of
   github or Mercurial for the test files.

   pal: I think we'll transition to github at some point but for
   the time being I suggest keeping them in Mercurial.
   ... I'm happy to make a directory under IMSC under Mercurial
   and upload all those files. When we switch to github we'll
   ... transition everything together.

   nigel: I'll send pal the email with the link so he can do that.
   [Update: done during meeting]

   Mike: I'll deal with this with Pierre and redact the email and
   post to the appropriate mailing list.
   ... for now I'll send the edited liaison to member-tt

Action Items

   nigel: There's no progress to discuss on any of the overdue
   open action items.

Issues

   nigel: We have 4 raised issues:

   issue-354?

   <trackbot> issue-354 -- Add support for letter spacing style
   semantics -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [18]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/354


     [18] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/354


   glenn: This and the marquee style came from looking at ARIB-TT.
   The text emphasis and tate-chu-yoko came
   ... from seeing other omissions.

   pal: How is Issue-354 related to Issue-236?

   issue-236?

   <trackbot> issue-236 -- Character spacing, i.e. letter-spacing
   -- open

   <trackbot>
   [19]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/236


     [19] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/236


   issue-354: [TTWG meeting] This may be a duplicate of issue-236

   <trackbot> Notes added to issue-354 Add support for letter
   spacing style semantics.

   reopen issue-354

   <trackbot> Re-opened issue-354.

   issue-355?

   <trackbot> issue-355 -- Add support for marquee style semantics
   -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [20]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/355


     [20] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/355


   reopen issue-355

   <trackbot> Re-opened issue-355.

   glenn: That's a shorthand version for doing a specific kind of
   animation like a ticker marquee text animation.
   ... I need to review if that can be related to the TTML2
   animate element - if it can we may not need to add any
   features.
   ... At the worst case I want to document how the marquee style
   can be mapped to some TTML2 feature set.

   Mike: We've had a couple of helpful private contacts but no
   official contact with ARIB.
   ... I wonder if it would be helpful to communicate with ARIB
   themselves to understand what they're doing?

   pal: Test vectors would be helpful too.
   ... We would want to avoid implementing something in TTML2 that
   doesn't actually meet the ARIB requirements so
   ... the more detail the better.

   Mike: I will investigate who the formal contact is at ARIB

   <scribe> ACTION: mdolan Investigate formal contact at ARIB
   [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-tt-minutes.html#action04]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-354 - Investigate formal contact at
   arib [on Mike Dolan - due 2014-11-27].

   issue-356?

   <trackbot> issue-356 -- Add support for text emphasis semantics
   -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [22]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/356


     [22] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/356


   reopen issue-356

   <trackbot> Re-opened issue-356.

   glenn: The Japanese subtitling system lambda-cap commonly uses
   emphasis marks, a bit like the Japanese way of doing
   ... italics. They put some mark over or under or right or left
   of the text to be emphasised.
   ... We need it to support that Japanese requirement. The CSS 3
   Text decoration module defines it, so I intend to use those
   ... semantics when drafting a new style property.
   ... This comes out of industry requirements not ARIB-TT. I'm
   working with some people on supporting features in the
   ... deployed Japanese subtitling market.

   pal: Can you point us to an example or add them to the issue?

   glenn: Yes, I'll add some description.

   issue-357?

   <trackbot> issue-357 -- Add support for horizontal in vertical
   (tate-chu-yoko). -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [23]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/357


     [23] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/357


   Glenn: this is basically a text orientation option that we
   don't yet support.
   ... If you have vertical lines with a couple of small
   horizontal characters like digits or Latin characters then they
   will
   ... often be laid out horizontally if the em-squares of the
   horizontal pieces can add up to the horizontal width of the
   vertical line.
   ... We'd be borrowing it from the CSS 3 module.

   pal: How does it relate to issue-229?

   issue-229?

   <trackbot> issue-229 -- Mixed vertical-horizontal progression
   direction -- open

   <trackbot>
   [24]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/229


     [24] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/229


   pal: It's encouraging that there's alignment between the SMPTE
   requests and the Japanese features.

   issue-357: This may be a duplicate of issue-229

   <trackbot> Notes added to issue-357 Add support for horizontal
   in vertical (tate-chu-yoko)..

   issue-273?

   <trackbot> issue-273 -- Map fontFamily to external font file
   resources -- open

   <trackbot>
   [25]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/273


     [25] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/273


   nigel: I suggest we park this for now since we've been
   discussing on the reflector successfully.

   glenn: I've been working on this lately and 3 other issues, and
   will post soon - embedded data, content including fonts, images
   and audio will be addressed.

   pal: I'm happy to follow up on the reflector because I'm
   confused as to what's broken in the current font face provision
   in TTML.

   glenn: There's nothing broken, but we have no way to specify
   author-supplied fonts.

   pal: But an author can specify any font name, including
   referring to a font file accompanying the TTML file.

   glenn: There's no explicit linkage defined like you've just
   suggested for associating a font family name in a TTML file
   ... with a specific font resource.
   ... Going back to "afxp" we had a requirement to support
   downloadable fonts. We did not allow external references
   ... before but now that we're going to it's not much change.

   pal: I'll take this up on the reflector. We need to be clear
   what we're trying to achieve.

   issue-305?

   <trackbot> issue-305 -- Registry of TTML profiles and short
   names -- pending review

   <trackbot>
   [26]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/305


     [26] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/305


   Mike: I don't think we're expecting more comms to/from MPEG
   except for a completed registry.

   close issue-305

   <trackbot> Closed issue-305.

TTML versions

   [27]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/5ee90ec0d897/ttml-stat

   us/index.html

     [27] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/5ee90ec0d897/ttml-status/index.html


   nigel: We now have a product on tracker for this document. It'd
   be good if everyone could review it.

TTML2

   nigel: We have 6 open CPs priority 1 to close before TTML2 FPWD
   - are the priorities correct?

   glenn: I think the priorities are correct and am now back 'on
   point' and should make good progress soon.
   ... We should be as complete as possible for FPWD because
   that's when the IPR process starts.

   nigel: We need a revised timeline - glenn can we work offline
   to put one together?

   glenn: I'm happy to do that.

   Mike: Have a good thanksgiving all

   nigel: We're out of time so I'll adjourn. We will meet next
   week, but for those celebrating Thanksgiving, have a good one.

   [adjourns meeting]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: mdolan Investigate formal contact at ARIB
   [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-tt-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: pal Update IMSC 1 ED for CR with exit criteria
   wording [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-tt-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: tmichel Draft Transition Request for IMSC 1 for
   CR [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-tt-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: tmichel Organise a meeting with Plh, nigel, the
   Director and the Editor of IMSC 1 [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-tt-minutes.html#action02]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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