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TTWG Meeting Minutes Jan 10, 2013

From: Monica Martin (MS OPEN TECH) <momartin@microsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 19:28:48 +0000
To: "'public-tt@w3.org'" <public-tt@w3.org>
Message-ID: <976b0b92fbbc48838e83c062700f822b@BY2PR03MB059.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
See: http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-minutes.html,text
http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-minutes.html

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

10 Jan 2013

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0009.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-irc

Attendees

   Present
          mmartin3, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, +1.425.658.aabb, Sean,
          +1.858.847.aacc, pal, mike, Andreas, Thomas_Bause_Mason,
          +1.408.771.aadd, mijordan, Plh

   Regrets
   Chair
          SV_MEETING_CHAIR

   Scribe
          mmartin3

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]SDP-US Issues
         2. [6]TTML 1.0 Second Edition
         3. [7]Actions
     * [8]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 10 January 2013

   chair sean hayes

   <scribe> scribenick: mmartin3

   zzakim,aaaa is Andreas

   akim, aaaa is Andreas

SDP-US Issues

   Issue-198?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-198 -- Add TTML in Title of SDP-US for Ready
   Recognition -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [9]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/198

      [9] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/198

   mmartin3: For ease of recognition.

   mike: sounds reasonable.

   Link: [10]http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/

     [10] http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/

   glenn: Where do we put it?

   mjordan: What about after SDP?

   glenn: Monica's suggestion is preferred.

   Resolved to add TTML to the name of SDP-US.

   <scribe> ACTION: Glenn Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US. Link:
   [11]http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/ recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-minutes.html#action01]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-137 - Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US.
   Link: [13]http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/ on Glenn Adams -
   due 2013-01-17].

     [13] http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/

   <glenn> monica's suggestion is to put TTML at beginning of
   title

   sean: Redundant list of features in Appendix B.

   glenn: Don't serve any real purpose.
   ... Features defined in Section 9.
   ... Duplicative and could become out of sync (current case).

   mike: Informative summary could also be added.

   Resolved: Remove two subsections in Appendix A.

   c/A/B

   <glenn> remove two paragraphs after table in appendix B

   <scribe> ACTION: Glenn Delete 2 paragraphs after table in
   Appendix B of SDP-US. [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-138 - Delete 2 paragraphs after table
   in Appendix B of SDP-US. [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-01-17].

   sean: Fix in editor's draft.

   glenn: Has to check URLs.

   mike: Public?

   [15]http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/

     [15] http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/

   pal: Add origin and extent to SDP-US?
   ... Section 9.
   ... Do we need display-region?

   glenn: Support styling.
   ... Do we need display for other elements in addition of
   region?
   ... Don't think we need on other elements like span.
   ... No change.

   mmartin3: We have requirements in extent-region.

   sean: Need to add extent and origin to Section 9.

   Andreas: Do we more for layering?

   c/layout/layout

   sean: Extent and origin consumed by layout.
   ... No change needed in Section 9.
   ... Note?

   glenn: Problem is we need to trace all others.
   ... Glenn will review to decide if we place a note in SDP-US
   not in Section 9.

   sean: Each feature description gives attributes and elements.
   Add another table or subsection in Section 9 that articulates
   those elements and attributes.

   glenn: Duplicates material that could become wrong.

   sean: Automate?

   glenn: Only prose in sections.

   Resolved: No change.

   glenn: SDP-US editorial issue in Example 2 has wrong font size.

   <scribe> ACTION: Glenn Correct font size in Example 2 in
   SDP-US. [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-139 - Correct font size in Example 2
   in SDP-US. [on Glenn Adams - due 2013-01-17].

TTML 1.0 Second Edition

   Issue-173?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-173 -- presentation semantics of control
   characters and other unmapped characters -- open

   <trackbot>
   [17]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/173

     [17] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/173

   glenn: No progress on SE issues. Work on now.
   ... Not sure we discussed in detail.
   ... Character without a mapped gliff.
   ... Handle directly or indirectly in XSL-FO semantics. Need to
   check this.
   ... Display gliff at all? Which is specified?

   mike: Need to decide on ones that alter the flow - carriage
   return, tab, etc.
   ... Are they part of the behavior of the region?
   ... Ignor or substitute?

   glenn: Handled by default semantics of XSL-FO. Describe
   behavior whitespace handling, new lines, etc. Default semantics
   of XSL-FO apply because TTML 1.0 doesn't dictate them.
   ... We could put information in TTML 1.0 SE.
   ... Umbrella issue that needs to be separate.

   sean: Be clear of what semantics actually are.
   ... Need to know what is in TTML 1.0.

   glenn: What are in the specification?

   mike: Tab, Carriage Return, New Line.

   glenn: Line separator and paragraph separator.

   sean: Glenn and Mike will quantify where we are at.

   mike: Section 7..1.7 is an example where we need to clarify.
   [18]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml10/spec/ttaf1-
   dfxp.html#content-vocabulary-br

     [18] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml10/spec/ttaf1-dfxp.html#content-vocabulary-br

   glenn: Reference UAX-14. May need to update and look at XSL-FO
   references in Second Edition.

   mike: One or more issues?

   glenn: Need another issue specifically related to whitespace
   handling and line breaking.

   Issue-175?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-175 -- media type and file extension not
   registered -- open

   <trackbot>
   [19]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/175

     [19] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/175

   mike: Produced proposed redlines.
   ... Material to Sean and Glenn, and to TTWG is sufficient.
   Original TTML 1.0 said that encoding should be binary. Should
   be UTF-8 and UTF-16.

   glenn: Registration information says binary.

   mike: XML specific encoding is what we are targeting.

   Mike's post:
   [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2012Nov/0036.
   html

     [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2012Nov/0036.html

   glenn: TTML 1.0 Second Edition doesn't talk about binary.
   ... Not in TTML 1.0 either.

   mike: Differences between what was given to IANA, discussion
   and in TTML 1.0.
   ... Talk about encoding.

   glenn: We don't have constraints for encoding. Recommended for
   wire encoding.

   mike: Optional parameters - application/xml supports a large
   number of encodings including binary.

   glenn: TTML 1.0 doesn't mandate a concrete encoding. Defines at
   the infoset with scalar values irrespective of their encoding.
   ... Appendix G.
   ... May differ with what was defined in MIME registration type.
   ... Shouldn't constrain.

   mike: Presentation engines that use UTF-8 and -16 gives some
   preference.
   ... UTF-8 document with namespace with binary.

   glenn: Where is the reference for your concern?

   sean: We do have a constraint in SDP-US.
   ... Don't understand the issue.

   mike: We have an issue on encoding.

   glenn: Content conformance has some requirements to
   application/xml

   Issue-197

   <trackbot> ISSUE-197 -- charset/encoding unconstrained -- open

   <trackbot>
   [21]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/197
   ...glenn: Derive encoding from there.

     [21] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/197

   sean: Table discussion until the issue is understood.
   ... Mike put a paragraph summarizing your concerns. Sean will
   review.

   mike: My concern is a document constrained to UTF-8 encoding
   with a namespace that uses binary. There could be processing
   issues. There may be other constraints in XML.

   glenn: There is no explicit references other than a TTML
   document at runtime. There could be implicit references.

   <mike> here is some more information, including the proposed
   redline of Annex C:
   [22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0005.
   html

     [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0005.html

   sean: Could use XML include.
   ... May not need a concrete MIME type. We need to
   comprehensively look at how you create the XML using the
   Infoset.

   glenn: We probably shouldn't say anything even though we may
   want to.
   ... Annex G could be generalized to namespace and profile
   documents.

   mike: Need to fix Annex C or remove entirely. If we keep it, we
   need to update with comments from IANA and others (see
   [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0005.
   html).
   ... Talk more about encoding.

     [23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2013Jan/0005.html).

Actions

   Action-133?

   <trackbot> ACTION-133 -- Mike Dolan to create updated template
   and summary of media type record for Glenn. -- due 2012-12-13
   -- CLOSED

   <trackbot>
   [24]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/133

     [24] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/133

   <scribe> Closed

   Action-136?

   <trackbot> ACTION-136 -- Glenn Adams to integrate changes from
   Action-133 into the TTML 1.0 Second Edition -- due 2013-01-14
   -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [25]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/136

     [25] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/136

   glenn: Still have issue if we need other changes. Do we delete
   Appendix C?

   sean: Table action given discussion.

   Issue-199?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-199 -- timeExpression to video frame
   calculation is unclear in some cases -- raised

   <trackbot>
   [26]http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/199

     [26] http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/199

   mike: Contacted by implementers - timeExpression with frames.
   How do we calculate the video frame?
   ... Cases where different time representations using clock with
   frames that result in the same video frame.
   ... M->1 mapping OK.
   ... Glenn proposed a different algortihm to go to 1-1 with some
   side effects. What is the best approach and give guidance in
   TTML 1.0 SE.
   ... Issue exist for non-integer frame rates with timeExpression
   with clock with frames.

   glenn: Implementer may have come to different conclusions. What
   was our original intent?
   ... Thread wasn't on public reflector.

   sean: Glenn and Sean prepare a discussion document for Jan 17
   or 24.

   mike: Work with issue and what is on reflector.

   plh: Will be gone Jan 17.

   trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Glenn Add "TTML" to name of SDP-US. Link:
   [27]http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/ recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: Glenn Correct font size in Example 2 in SDP-US.
   [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Glenn Delete 2 paragraphs after table in Appendix
   B of SDP-US. [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/10-tt-minutes.html#action02]

     [27] http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml10-sdp-us/

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:31:27 GMT

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