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RE: Roll up in DFXP

From: John Birch <john.birch@screen.subtitling.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:50:47 -0000
Message-ID: <4476B296B92A4741A49B0BD017590700AA79E6@sss-uk-ex-02.screen.subtitling.local>
To: "Sean Hayes" <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>, <akirkpat@adobe.com>, <public-tt@w3.org>
In some senses I agree with you... except for one word.... container.
Roll up captions are most commonly associated with live video... which
raises the issue of streaming video.
I don't see how your suggestion would work if the time duration of the
'container' is unknown (as it would be in a live scenario).
 
Your suggestion would work to provide a 'simulation' of a previously
transmitted live performance (after the event had finished).
 
I certainly agree that as a backstop position it is possible to generate
the caption roll effect in DFXP.
Tickers (crawls) must move at a pixel level.
 
BUT an attribute on a region would be applicable regardless of how much,
and when, content is placed into it.
Expansion of any syntatic sugar would be unnecessary, since the roll or
crawl behaviour would be inherently in the user agent.
 
regards
 
John

________________________________

From: Sean Hayes [mailto:Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com] 
Sent: 12 December 2008 20:34
To: John Birch; akirkpat@adobe.com; public-tt@w3.org
Subject: RE: Roll up in DFXP



Counter, counter proposal, I believe dynamicFlow is actually an emergent
property of time containerJ

 

In order to convince myself that some form of both rollup and crawl are
already expressible in dfxp without dynamicFlow, (if not terribly
convenient), I created the example below.  Although untested, I believe
this example demonstrates word at a time crawl and rollup semantics.
(character at a time is more spans than I could be bothered to create
but is essentially the same, as are other larger units. Pixel and glyph
level operations cannot be described by this method). 

 

This kind of content could easily be generated by a tool, if not very
convenient by hand; so at the very worst we have some kind of dynamic
flow story.

 

If Glenn and John are unable to deliver on dynamicFlow proper by end of
January, I have the following proposal, which comes down to a syntax
sugar for generating the example content (this proposal may be useful
independently of whether we successfully add region flow):

 

I would posit that dynamicFlow not be an attribute on region, but rather
derived from timeContainer values which distribute the duration of the
parent over its children. There are a few modes in which this
distribution could occur but the following two seem the most useful in
terms of our charter.

 

1)       The parent is a seq, and each child is automatically assigned
begin=0 and dur=N so that the entire container behaves like a seq where
the duration is completely filled with equal duration periods one for
each child.

2)       The parent is a par and each child is automatically assigned a
begin=N so that the first child occupies all time partitions, the second
child all but the first, and so on to the last child which occupies only
the last.

 

Begin end and dur specified on children would be ignored.

 

Names for these might be timeContainer='partition' and
timeContainer='append'. Note that these are simply syntactic shorthand
for par and seq with implied time calculations, thus no new semantics
are being introduced here.

 

Then in order to avoid hand generating all the spans, we need an
'autoSpan' content type attribute which generates the child spans from
PCDATA for either word or character level content. Again this is just
syntactic shorthand for the long form of specifying all the spans
manually.

 

[[Note that I'm relying on scroll in the example, but scroll as defined
in CSS and XSL is not actually very useful in a captioning type
environment (I have an issue open on this already) I propose we allow
auto as an overflow property value; and defined its semantics as
automatically keeping the content furthest from the textAlign and
displayAlign edges in view, rather than creating scrollbars. 

we might recover the pixel level scrolling mode here]].

 

Example:

 

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>

<tt xml:lang="en"

    xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2006/10/ttaf1"

    xmlns:tts="http://www.w3.org/2006/10/ttaf1#style"

    xmlns:ttm="http://www.w3.org/2006/10/ttaf1#metadata">

  <head>

      <styling>

      <style xml:id="s1"

                         tts:displayAlign="after"

                         tts:background-color="black" 

                         tts:color="white" 

                         tts:origin="0px 0px" 

                         tts:extent="20em 3em"

                         />

      <style xml:id="s2"

                         tts:displayAlign="after"

                         tts:background-color="black"

                         tts:color="white"

                         tts:origin="0px 4em"

                         tts:extent="20em 3em"

                         tts:wrapOption="noWrap"

                         tts:overflow="scroll"

                         />

          <style xml:id="p20" tts:padding="20em 0em 0em 0em" />

          <style xml:id="p4" tts:padding="4em 0em 0em 0em" />

      </styling>

      <layout>

          <region xml:id="rollup" style="s1"   />

          <region xml:id="crawl" style="s2"  />

      </layout>

  </head>

  <body region="rollup crawl" timeContainer="par">

    <div region="rollup" timeContainer="par">

      <p timeContainer="par">

          <span begin="0.1875s" >Five </span>

          <span begin="0.375s" >o'clock </span>

          <span begin="0.5625s" >tea! </span>

          <span begin="0.75s" ><br/>Ever </span>

          <span begin="0.9375s" >to </span>

          <span begin="1.125s" >thee, </span>

          <span begin="1.3125s" ><br/>Faithful </span>

          <span begin="1.5s" >I'll  </span>

          <span begin="1.6875s" >be, </span>

          <span begin="1.875s" ><br/>Five </span>

          <span begin="2.0625s" >o'clock </span>

          <span begin="2.25s" >tea! </span>

          <span begin="2.4375s" ><br/></span>

         <span begin="2.625s" ><br/></span>

         <span begin="2.8125s" ><br/></span>

         <span begin="3s" ><br/></span>

      </p>

     </div>

     <div region="crawl" timeContainer="par">

      <p timeContainer="par">

          <span begin="0.1875s" style="p20">Five </span>

          <span begin="0.375s" >o'clock </span>

          <span begin="0.5625s" >tea! </span>

          <span begin="0.75s" >Ever </span>

          <span begin="0.9375s" >to </span>

          <span begin="1.125s" >thee, </span>

          <span begin="1.3125s" >Faithful </span>

          <span begin="1.5s" >I'll  </span>

          <span begin="1.6875s" >be, </span>

          <span begin="1.875s" >Five </span>

          <span begin="2.0625s" >o'clock </span>

          <span begin="2.25s" >tea! </span>

          <span begin="2.4375s" style="p4"/> 

         <span begin="2.625s" style="p4"/>

         <span begin="2.8125s" style="p4"/>

         <span begin="3s" style="p4"/>

      </p>

     </div>

 </body>

</tt>

 

 

Example with proposed syntax shorthand

 

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>

<tt xml:lang="en"

    xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2006/10/ttaf1"

    xmlns:tts="http://www.w3.org/2006/10/ttaf1#style"

    xmlns:ttm="http://www.w3.org/2006/10/ttaf1#metadata">

  <head>

      <styling>

      <style xml:id="s1"

                         tts:displayAlign="after"

                         tts:background-color="black" 

                         tts:color="white" 

                         tts:origin="0px 0px" 

                         tts:extent="20em 3em"

                         />

      <style xml:id="s2"

                         tts:displayAlign="after"

                         tts:background-color="black"

                         tts:color="white"

                         tts:origin="0px 4em"

                         tts:extent="20em 3em"

                         tts:wrapOption="noWrap"

                         tts:overflow="scroll"

                         />

          <style xml:id="p20" tts:padding="20em 0em 0em 0em" />

          <style xml:id="p4" tts:padding="4em 0em 0em 0em" />

      </styling>

      <layout>

          <region xml:id="rollup" style="s1"   />

          <region xml:id="crawl" style="s2"  />

      </layout>

  </head>

  <body region="rollup crawl" timeContainer="par">

    <div region="rollup" dur="3s" timeContainer="par">

      <p timeContainer="append">Five o'clock tea! 

          <br/>Ever to thee, 

          <br/>Faithful I'll be, 

          <br/>Five o'clock tea!

          <br/>

          <br/>

          <br/>

      </p>

     </div>

     <div region="crawl" timeContainer="par">

      <p timeContainer="append" dur="3s">

         <span style="p20">Five</span> o'clock tea! Ever to thee,
Faithful I'll be, Five o'clock tea! <span style="p4"/> <span
style="p4"/> <span style="p4"/> <span style="p4"/>

      </p>

     </div>

 </body>

</tt>

 

 

Sean Hayes
Media Accessibility Strategist
Accessibility Business Unit
Microsoft

 

Office:  +44 118 909 5867,  

Mobile: +44 7875 091385

 

From: public-tt-request@w3.org [mailto:public-tt-request@w3.org] On
Behalf Of John Birch
Sent: 12 December 2008 15:49
To: akirkpat@adobe.com; public-tt@w3.org
Subject: Re: Roll up in DFXP

 

Counter proposal :-)

Allow markup on a region to define it as a roll-up region (or a crawl).
Define semanics that describe how content that is released into these
regions should act over time and during conditions of 'region full'.

It's not the content that has a roll character - it's the region...

Agree about empty p elements...

J
Sent by Blackberry

John Birch | Screen Subtitling Systems Ltd | Strategic Partnerships Manager
Main Line : +44 (0)1473 831700 | Ext : 270 | Office :  
Mobile: +44 (0)7919 558380 | Fax: +44 (0)1473 830078
john.birch@screen.subtitling.com | www.screen.subtitling.com
The Old Rectory, Claydon Curch Lane, Claydon,Ipswich,IP6 0EQ,United Kingdom


See us at Broadcast Video Expo - February 17th - 19th 2009, Earls Court 2, London, Stand number K56


Before Printing, think about the environment

----- Original Message -----
From: public-tt-request@w3.org <public-tt-request@w3.org>
To: Public TTWG List <public-tt@w3.org>
Sent: Fri Dec 12 15:39:38 2008
Subject: Roll up in DFXP

From an interested party.



Rollup Captions

To properly represent 608/708 closed captions, it is important that DFXP
TimedText provide some basic support for roll-up style captions.
[company] has yet to formalize plans in this area, but is proposing the
following basic structure:

        *       Allow for a <body>, <div>, or individual <p> element to
be tagged as rollup, with an attribute indicating the number of lines of
rollup text (typically 2 or 3 lines).
        *       Leverage the proposed upperThird/middleThird/lowerThird
region tag to allow for the rollup caption area to be positioned
appropriately on the screen. Software that converts 608/708 captions to
TimedText can inspect the line positioning and infer the appropriate
screen region.
        *       Interpret empty <p> tags as a command to clear the
roll-up display. Software that converts 608/708 captions to TimedText
would generate an empty <p> tag whenver encountering {EDM} erase
commands.





Thanks,

AWK



Andrew Kirkpatrick



Senior Product Manager, Accessibility



Adobe Systems



akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpatrick@adobe.com>




John Birch | Screen Subtitling Systems Ltd | Strategic Partnerships
Manager 
Main Line : +44 (0)1473 831700 | Ext : 270 | Direct Dial : +44 (0)1473
834532 
Mobile : +44 (0)7919 558380 | Fax : +44 (0)1473 830078
john.birch@screen.subtitling.com | www.screen.subtitling.com
The Old Rectory, Claydon Curch Lane, Claydon,Ipswich,Suffolk,IP6
0EQ,United Kingdom

See us at Broadcast Video Expo - February 17th - 19th 2009, Earls Court
2, London, Stand number K56

P Before printing, think about the environment



 

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This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation. Screen Subtitling Systems Ltd. Registered in England No. 2596832. Registered Office: The Old Rectory, Claydon Church Lane, Claydon, Ipswich, Suffolk, IP6 0EQ
Received on Monday, 15 December 2008 12:51:44 GMT

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