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Re: new issue? dfxp and language selection

From: geoff freed <geoff_freed@wgbh.org>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:43:09 -0500
Cc: Sean Hayes <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>, Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org>
Message-Id: <588EE1DA-29D4-4FB2-9293-D5C0DA9ECD50@wgbh.org>
To: John Birch <john.birch@screen.subtitling.com>, public-tt@w3.org

i agree with john, especially that the xml:lang behavior of ccplayer  
can't be changed right now.  i also agree that changing xml:lang in  
dfxp wanders from our charter, but if other disagree i won't fight  
this point.

g.



ec 3, 2008, at 2:24 PM, John Birch wrote:

> Hmmm!
> Arguably in the CCforFlash interpretation the switch is on the div  
> based on the value of the xml:lang attribute... I don't think it  
> would be easy to get the cc4flash usage changed so perhaps we should  
> bend? Some informative text in the spec might be sufficient?
>
> Agree about multiple divs... Seems both interpretations of div use  
> might be valid...
>
> John
>
> Sent by Blackberry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sean Hayes <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>
> To: John Birch; Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org>; public-tt@w3.org <public-tt@w3.org 
> >
> Sent: Wed Dec 03 17:44:35 2008
> Subject: RE: new issue? dfxp and language selection
>
> It's an interesting point. I believe the spec as currently written  
> does not allow for the ccplayer interpretation. We could certainly  
> adjust it so that it did, but I'd rather not do it based on xml:lang  
> at this point for a couple of reasons:
>
> 1) it takes us a bit far from our current charter.
> 2) it would be a very specific fix, and I'd rather handle this in a  
> more generic way using conditional styling when and if we get round  
> to addressing applicative style.
>
> It is certainly meaningful and useful to have multiple divs in a  
> single document for different purposes, and one could possibly even  
> construct a mechanism which would allow different languages to flow  
> into different regions, and have the user select which was visible  
> based on some kind of user stylesheet processing; but it would have  
> to be done as some form of extension, and not violate the normative  
> parts of the specification.
>
> Sean Hayes
> Media Accessibility Strategist
> Accessibility Business Unit
> Microsoft
>
> Office:  +44 118 909 5867,
> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>
> John Birch | Screen Subtitling Systems Ltd | Strategic Partnerships  
> Manager
> Main Line : +44 (0)1473 831700 | Ext : 270 | Direct Dial : +44  
> (0)1473 834532
> Mobile : +44 (0)7919 558380 | Fax : +44 (0)1473 830078
> john.birch@screen.subtitling.com | www.screen.subtitling.com
> The Old Rectory, Claydon Curch Lane, Claydon,Ipswich,Suffolk,IP6  
> 0EQ,United Kingdom
>
> See us at Broadcast Video Expo  February 17th  19th 2009, Earls  
> Court 2, London, Stand number K56
>
> P Before printing, think about the environment
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Birch [mailto:john.birch@screen.subtitling.com]
> Sent: 03 December 2008 17:32
> To: Sean Hayes; Philippe Le Hegaret; public-tt@w3.org
> Subject: RE: new issue? dfxp and language selection
>
> I personally find the cc player implementation to be quite
> appropriate... It's lightweight and effective.
> The fact that it doesn't comply with the intention of DFXP perhaps
> illustrates a divergence between the requirements of the 'real world'
> and our spec?
>
> It is a fact (clearly demonstrated by the CCforFlash implementation  
> and
> indeed by real world multimedia e.g. Digital TV broadcasts in Europe),
> that multiple languages are required to be supported by the media. Two
> points appear valid here... A) DFXP was originally targetted at
> authoring...And in that context a predominant single language is by  
> far
> the most common and B) I recall discussion that for multi-language
> support it was suggested that the external container would index
> multiple DFXP documents as necessary. I don't recall such guidance in
> our spec however (admittedly I haven't checked)...and clearly the
> implementors of CCForFLASH took a different view :-)
>
> However, given that this and other? implementations appear to be using
> DFXP for both authoring and transmission, I suggest that it would be
> valid to examine how easily the spec could be adjusted to accommodate
> both the authoring and transmission scenarios...
>
> But I don't see it as an issue for xml:lang... Surely it's an issue  
> for
> 'our' definition of the meaning of div.
> The question as I see it is... Is it meaningful to select on the basis
> of div elements (as in CCForFLASH) or conversely....
> Is it 'meaningful' / useful to use multiple div elements in a DFXP
> document with the presumption that they all display simultaneously.
>
>
> John
>
>
> John Birch | Screen Subtitling Systems Ltd | Strategic Partnerships  
> Manager
> Main Line : +44 (0)1473 831700 | Ext : 270 | Office :
> Mobile: +44 (0)7919 558380 | Fax: +44 (0)1473 830078
> john.birch@screen.subtitling.com | www.screen.subtitling.com
> The Old Rectory, Claydon Curch Lane, Claydon,Ipswich,IP6 0EQ,United  
> Kingdom
>
>
> See us at Broadcast Video Expo - February 17th - 19th 2009, Earls  
> Court 2, London, Stand number K56
>
>
> Before Printing, think about the environment
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-tt-request@w3.org [mailto:public-tt-request@w3.org] On
> Behalf Of Sean Hayes
> Sent: 03 December 2008 16:58
> To: Philippe Le Hegaret; public-tt@w3.org
> Subject: RE: new issue? dfxp and language selection
>
>
> In earlier discussions I believe we came to the conclusion that for
> multi lingual scenarios, it would be better to have separate files for
> each language. The xml:lang usage on elements was to clarify the use
> where one was momentarily switching languages, e.g. in a quotation,  
> but
> where it was part of the same discourse.
>
> I think in fact the ccPlayer behaviour fails to adhere to the  
> processing
> specified by section 9.3, which does not specify tree pruning based on
> language, and thus is not acting in accordance with the spec which  
> would
> require simultaneous presentation of all three languages.
>
> We can certainly clarify this in the definition of the xml:lang
> attribute, but I believe we should track this as an implementation  
> error
> by ccPlayer.
>
> Sean Hayes
> Media Accessibility Strategist
> Accessibility Business Unit
> Microsoft
>
> Office:  +44 118 909 5867,
> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-tt-request@w3.org [mailto:public-tt-request@w3.org] On
> Behalf Of Philippe Le Hegaret
> Sent: 03 December 2008 15:54
> To: public-tt@w3.org
> Subject: new issue? dfxp and language selection
>
>
> I noticed that the ccPlayer is able to handle multiple languages in  
> the
> same document:
>
> <body>
>   <div xml:lang='en'>..</div>
>   <div xml:lang='ja'>..</div>
>   <div xml:lang='fr'>..</div>
>   ...
> </body>
>
> You can then select which language to display using the interface.
>
> It's allowed by the specification but nothing there says that you can
> display only one language.
>
> Do we need to say to say anything in the spec about such usage?
>
> Philippe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> disclose or take any action based on this message or any information  
> herein. If you have received this message in error, please advise  
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> Thank you for your cooperation. Screen Subtitling Systems Ltd.  
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Received on Wednesday, 3 December 2008 20:44:06 GMT

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