W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-tt@w3.org > December 2008

RE: new issue? dfxp and language selection

From: Sean Hayes <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:44:35 +0000
To: John Birch <john.birch@screen.subtitling.com>, Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org>, "public-tt@w3.org" <public-tt@w3.org>
Message-ID: <90EEC9D914694641A8358AA190DACB3D2FCE8AB384@EA-EXMSG-C334.europe.corp.microsoft.com>

It's an interesting point. I believe the spec as currently written does not allow for the ccplayer interpretation. We could certainly adjust it so that it did, but I'd rather not do it based on xml:lang at this point for a couple of reasons:

1) it takes us a bit far from our current charter.
2) it would be a very specific fix, and I'd rather handle this in a more generic way using conditional styling when and if we get round to addressing applicative style.

It is certainly meaningful and useful to have multiple divs in a single document for different purposes, and one could possibly even construct a mechanism which would allow different languages to flow into different regions, and have the user select which was visible based on some kind of user stylesheet processing; but it would have to be done as some form of extension, and not violate the normative parts of the specification.

Sean Hayes
Media Accessibility Strategist
Accessibility Business Unit

Office:  +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385

-----Original Message-----
From: John Birch [mailto:john.birch@screen.subtitling.com]
Sent: 03 December 2008 17:32
To: Sean Hayes; Philippe Le Hegaret; public-tt@w3.org
Subject: RE: new issue? dfxp and language selection

I personally find the cc player implementation to be quite
appropriate... It's lightweight and effective.
The fact that it doesn't comply with the intention of DFXP perhaps
illustrates a divergence between the requirements of the 'real world'
and our spec?

It is a fact (clearly demonstrated by the CCforFlash implementation and
indeed by real world multimedia e.g. Digital TV broadcasts in Europe),
that multiple languages are required to be supported by the media. Two
points appear valid here... A) DFXP was originally targetted at
authoring...And in that context a predominant single language is by far
the most common and B) I recall discussion that for multi-language
support it was suggested that the external container would index
multiple DFXP documents as necessary. I don't recall such guidance in
our spec however (admittedly I haven't checked)...and clearly the
implementors of CCForFLASH took a different view :-)

However, given that this and other? implementations appear to be using
DFXP for both authoring and transmission, I suggest that it would be
valid to examine how easily the spec could be adjusted to accommodate
both the authoring and transmission scenarios...

But I don't see it as an issue for xml:lang... Surely it's an issue for
'our' definition of the meaning of div.
The question as I see it is... Is it meaningful to select on the basis
of div elements (as in CCForFLASH) or conversely....
Is it 'meaningful' / useful to use multiple div elements in a DFXP
document with the presumption that they all display simultaneously.


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-----Original Message-----
From: public-tt-request@w3.org [mailto:public-tt-request@w3.org] On
Behalf Of Sean Hayes
Sent: 03 December 2008 16:58
To: Philippe Le Hegaret; public-tt@w3.org
Subject: RE: new issue? dfxp and language selection

In earlier discussions I believe we came to the conclusion that for
multi lingual scenarios, it would be better to have separate files for
each language. The xml:lang usage on elements was to clarify the use
where one was momentarily switching languages, e.g. in a quotation, but
where it was part of the same discourse.

I think in fact the ccPlayer behaviour fails to adhere to the processing
specified by section 9.3, which does not specify tree pruning based on
language, and thus is not acting in accordance with the spec which would
require simultaneous presentation of all three languages.

We can certainly clarify this in the definition of the xml:lang
attribute, but I believe we should track this as an implementation error
by ccPlayer.

Sean Hayes
Media Accessibility Strategist
Accessibility Business Unit

Office:  +44 118 909 5867,
Mobile: +44 7875 091385

-----Original Message-----
From: public-tt-request@w3.org [mailto:public-tt-request@w3.org] On
Behalf Of Philippe Le Hegaret
Sent: 03 December 2008 15:54
To: public-tt@w3.org
Subject: new issue? dfxp and language selection

I noticed that the ccPlayer is able to handle multiple languages in the
same document:

  <div xml:lang='en'>..</div>
  <div xml:lang='ja'>..</div>
  <div xml:lang='fr'>..</div>

You can then select which language to display using the interface.

It's allowed by the specification but nothing there says that you can
display only one language.

Do we need to say to say anything in the spec about such usage?


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Received on Wednesday, 3 December 2008 17:45:50 UTC

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