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Minutes of TT WG Teleconference on 01/20/05

From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:26:07 +0200
Message-ID: <425AF97F.4050207@w3.org>
To: public-tt@w3.org

Minutes of TT WG Teleconference on 01/20/05


  Glenn Adams (XFSI, Chair, Scribe) [GA]
  Geoff Freed (WGBH/NCAM) [GF]
  Sean Hayes, Microsoft (SH)
  David Kirby (BBC) [DK]
  Thierry Michel (W3C) [TM]


  Kees Blum (CWI) [KB]
  Dick Bulterman (CWI) [DB]
  Mike Dolan (invited expert) [MD]
  Erik Hodge (RealNetworks) [EH]
  Dave Singer (Apple) [DS]

Draft Agenda

Draft Agenda

1. frame rates [1]
2. root container geometry [2]
3. script citations [3]
4. charter and work plan - on deferring AFXP work
5. status on [DS] comments.
6. next face-to-face planning

[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2005Jan/0039.html
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2005Jan/0032.html
[3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2005Jan/0038.html

1. frame rates [1]

[MD] has requested to defer until he can join telecon.

[GA] supports separate frame rate and frame rate multipier parameters,
but would like the multiplier to be expressed as a rational number
using a ratio expression, perhaps using ':' to separator numerator and

2. root container geometry [2]

[DK] leaning towards options (3) or (7). likes idea of vocabulary reuse.

[SH] we have based on layout system on XSL and CSS, not SMIL.

[GA] design of <layout> and <region> was modeled on XSL's support for
page master, and not SMIL layout. introducing root-layout from SMIL
would be inconsistent; we have made use of SMIL vocabulary only for
timing, and not at all for layout;

[GA] brings up need to address other parameters and where to express,

* frame-rate
* cell-resolution
* content-origin
* frame-extent

[GA] thinks that content-origin and frame-extent could be best
characterized as metadata, since this information is optional.

[SH] in absence of outer context, frame-extent and content-origin may
be used.

Action: [DK]|[GF] respond to query at [2].

[GA] will await further input from group; but is strongly leaning
towards option (3) for content-extent; is leaning towards using <tt>
to express other parameters.

3. script citations [3]

[GF] need to consider backup plan if fail to gain approvals. we can use
public domain texts if necessary.

[DK] will send update to reflector upon new news.

4. charter and work plan

[TM] W3M has approved extension to end of 2005; announcement expected.

[GA] wonders if charter time schedule needs updated?

Action: [TM] check on whether we can update charter time schedule to
reflect new schedule.

5. status on [DS] comments.

Defer until [DS] is present.

6. next face-to-face planning

[TM] when do we expect to start LC?

[GA] no later than end of January, as I am targeting 01/30 for LC draft.

[TM] need ~2 wks for transition request and publication processing.

[GA] thinks that transition request is not required: a LC is still a WD.

Action: [GA] to verify policty regarding need of transition request to
go to LC.

[GA] Expect to focus on LC comments and planning for test suites and
CR transition.

Action: [TM] send pointer to QA WG docs on test planning to reflector.




Action: [DK]|[GF] respond to query at [2].

Action: [TM] check on whether we can update charter time schedule to
reflect new schedule.

Action: [GA] to verify policty regarding need of transition request to
go to LC.

Action: [TM] send pointer to QA WG docs on test planning to reflector.


Action: [EH] Provide use cases in TT context for priority class attr

Action: [SH] To elaborate use cases for audio embed usage.

Action: [GA] to generalize and clearly articulate [MD] feedback on XBC
with TT-AF structured timing as use case, then send to WG for review
prior to forwarding to XBC.

Action: [GA] need to document conventions regarding normative definition
of element vocabulary and syntax used therein.

Action: [GA] need to characterize definitions of vocabulary as normative
while supplied schemas are informative.

Action: [GA] review recent proposed changes regarding xml:space from
XML Core Working Group with view of changing our vocabulary definitions
as necessary.

Action: [GA] restore nested <div/> in content model.

Action: [GA] ensure that background color applies to content elements
as well as region.

Action: [GA] change language in vocab element defs that defines equiv
class of attrs in foreign namespace to not admit unqualified attrs.

Action: [GA] need to ensure that we document whether time intervals
are half-opened intervals or closed. We always use half-opened intervals
for [begin,end) = [begin,begin+dur).

Action: [GA] ensure there is language that gives precendence to
end over dur in case both are specified.

Action: [GA] remove region attribute from span element.

Action: [GA], prompted by [SH], need to define what is meant by begin
attribute on <body>.

Action: [KB] lookup whether default time container for SMIL body is
seq or par. Report back by tomorrow (9/16).

Action: [GA] add table indicating default values for timeContainer.

Action: [GA] remove nested <span> support from schema and span
element definition.

Action: [GA] Update schema to permit multiple tts:* attributes on
style element.

Action: [GA] make style attribute IDREFS instead of ID.

Action: [GA] add style attribute to <g/>.

Action: [GA] change region so that it uses style attribute to
refer to styles in addition to defining them inline as children.

Action: [GA] need to establish precedence for different style
association mechanisms as follows, with priority order as follows:
(1) inline, (2) referential or chained referential, (3) region
referential. In case that referential or chained referential results
in a diamond graph, then last instance of style in pre-order depth
first traversal wins.

Action: [SH] will research issue of interaction of combination rule
#2 and region referential styling.

Action: [GA] add <p> and <span> to list of elements to which
background-color applies

Action: [GA] change initial value of color style property to
transparent. [N.B. consequence of this is that unless author
specifies a color, then content will be invisible.]

Action: [GA] restore "inherit" value for style properties.

Action: [GA] specify language about meaning of line height.

Action: [GA] formulate proposal to express coordinates in rows
and columns and to express total # of rows/cols for which content was

Action: [GA] change DFXP schema and WD to use <meta> instead of

Action: [DK] Discuss with [MD] how to express pull-down parameters to
completely characterize frame and field composition.

Action: [GA] need to add following metadata items to schema and spec:
ttm:frame-rate ttm:frame-width ttm:frame-height
ttm:pixel-aspect-ratio ttm:content-width ttm:content-height
ttm:content-x ttm:content-y ttm:horizontal-resolution

Action: [GA] need to specify semantics for each metadata item, need
to specify what it means if multiple items with same name are present
in some context, and if not permitted, expected behavior.

Action: [GA] add definitions of following metadata elements to schema
and spec for DFXP: ttm:agent, ttm:name, ttm:givenName,
ttm:familyName, ttm:actor. Also add ttm:agent attribute to <p> and

Action: [GA] add ttm:title, ttm:description, ttm:copyright to schema
and spec for DFXP.

Action: [GA] ensure that all elements can also take ttm:* attributes,
but need to define in context of specific elements which ones have
standard semantics.

Action: [GA] define semantics of ttm:agent metadata attribute such that
inner specifications override outer specifications, e.g.,

Action: [GA] change text-shadow to text-outline with value syntax as
follows: none | <color> <thickness> <blur-radius>, where thickness and
blur-radius are expressed as <length>.

Action: [GA] add span to wrap-option "applies to".

Action: [GA] for each AFXP style property that we don't include in DFXP,
need to specify a normative default value for DFXP, but do so in a way
that doesn't require normative use of AFXP specification.

Action: [GA] since <color>s are opaque, need to say so in verbiage.

Action: [GA] Remove misspelled "monotype" entry from <generic-family-
name>, and replace it with "default". All other entries are also to be
removed for present time.

Action: [GA] Add row/col units to <length> style value expression.

Action: [GA] Ensure that if we define overflow="clip" on region that
we say that outermost region is expected to be clipped in all cases.

Action: [GA] change overflow attribute on region to use tts:overflow
style property, which applies only to region, and which supports values:
visible, hidden, inherit.

Action: [GA] Change clock-value syntax to support expressing optional
frames and subframes in order to express NPT media times. Define clock
value semantically to be NPT for TT media object. Remove optional "+"
value from offset-expression (in which case we don't need "offset-
expression" intermediate term).

Action: [GA] allow style to use style attribute to refer to other
styles, since we effectively now allow <style> to work like a group of

Action: [GA] remove "div" from display-align's applies to list. Can't
apply to div since div has no explicit height/width.

Action: [GA] Add ttm:default-time-metric metadata item. Takes
values that are one of time-count metric, e.g., "h", "m", "s",
"f", etc.

Action: [GA] send John's document to WG reflector, then (at some point
in future) ask him to send to public list so it can be handled as public

Action: [GA] Add informative Annex to DFXP spec which enumerates the
requirements of TT-AF-1-0-REQ which are intentionally not intended to
be met in DFXP.

Action: [KB] Review the March 2002 TT Task Force requirements to see if
the current TT-AF-1-0-REQ does not include all those earlier
and if not, then make a case for including in TT-AF-1-0-REQ. [TM] will
help as required and report back to WG.

Action: [DB] to send draft intro text with example by Monday (10/04).

Action: [MD] to send normative text descriptions of SMPTE marker labels.
Will send after returning from vacation in a week's time.

Action: [DS] to send font registration I-D to IETF editors for

Action: [MD] to send normative text descriptions of SMPTE marker labels.
Will send after returning from vacation in a week's time.

Action: [GA] To make necessary chanes to DFXP draft to support ttm:desc
and ttm:title in contexts where tt:meta can appear.

Action: [GA] To send minutes with attached lastest draft (in the form
of an "editor's copy") of DFXP to public TT reflector by end of day
on Oct 18 unless objection arises from some member.

Action: [GA] send email to reflector on need to distinguish between
outer media time and timebase time (based on parent relationships);
is as follows: if you have begin="00:00:01", then does this denote
1 sec in time base established by parent element, or does it denote
1 sec into the TT media object (independently of parent timebases)?
Can one mix both timebase times and outer media times?

Action: [GA] to complete DFXP draft 6 and sent to member reflector
by noon ET on Tuesday, 10/26/04, then work with [TM] to request
publishing as Public WD.

Action: [TM] to draft request for [GA] to send to appropriate parties
to begin process of advancing DFXP to public WD.

Action: [GA] To verify that TTPRO DB is well configured to handle
DFXP comments.

Action: [DK] To help verify that TTPRO DB is populated with open
DFXP issues.

Action: [GA] Will resolve any issues about having F2F with W3T
(Philipp Hoschka) and report results.

Action: [GA] To send notice to reflector and request Thierry to post
standard meeting participation info.

Action: [MD] Will review and propose changes/additions as necessary
regarding ttm:role values.

Action: [MD] Will review and propose changes/additions as necessary
regarding ttm:frame-rate and use of time values.

Action: [DK] to submit input from EBU/AAF adhoc on following topics:
(1) use of metadata to announce languages used in document; (2) use
of metadata to categorize subtitles, e.g., closed vs open;

Action: [SH] to submit message to reflector on text-outline issue;

Action: [GF] to update example of background-color to include different
colors for div, p and span.

Action: [GF] to review style examples for need to add depictions of
enumerated values of styles;

Action: [GA] Remove last sentence of 3rd para of 4.1.5; see [12] -
item 11.

Action: [GA] Address typos reported by [12] - items 4-10, 12

Action: [DB] to send proposal for using root-layout element to

Action: [KB] to review metadata for content adaptation workshop
presentations [15] to see if there is relevant input to our work on

Action: [GA] to investigate and propose definition of whitespace
normalization to apply when xml:space="default".

Action: [GA] add language under namespace and/or conventions section
indicates that if an element type is used unqualified in spec then it is
in tt: namespace.

Action: [GA] need to add definition of "S" non-terminal used in 5.2.5.

Action: [GA] consider need for tts:display in context of using <set/>.

Action: [GA] Change all names to camelCase form.

Action: [GA] Remove editorial note in 5.3.4; already covered by text in
2nd paragraph.

Action: [GA] Add text to 5.3.4, saying that the concrete font used to
map monospace-* and proportional-* should be monospace, proportional,

Action: [GA] further research required on quoted-string.

Action: [DK] to obtain permission and propose language for proper
attribution in acknowledgments annex.

Action: [DK] will elaborate examples in [*] (1), dividing into 3: (a)
showing mixed language material; (b) separate translations of same
material in different documents; (c) mixture of separate translations
in same document, where (c) is explicitly disrecommended.

[*] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2004Dec/0010.html

Action: [GA] formulate proposal for metadata in head that enumerates
language usage.

Action: [DK] Change example in [*] (2) to use "x-open" and "x-closed"
for ttm:role values.

Action: [DK] Change "characters" to "columns" and "lines" to "rows"
in [*] (3).

Action: [DK] Change "considered" to "included" in [*] (4)

Action: [DK] Change to read "TTWG is considering"in [*] (8).

Action: [DK] Change to present tense in [*] (9).

Action: [DK] in [*] (10) cite 3rd para of 4.1.2 and use example of
ttm:agent metadata being defined in either <head/> or under a content
element, such as <p/>.

Action: [GA] Propose document level property to express how to interpret
time expressions, with values: internal-media, external-media,
and smpte-non-linear; should be extensible list.

Action: [GA] send email documenting counter-proposal to root-layout.


See Issue DB.

*** Upcoming Meetings ***

Normal Telecon Schedule

Mar 03-05/2005 - Boston, MA (dependent on charter extension)

*** URIs ***

[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2005Jan/0039.html
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2005Jan/0032.html
[3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2005Jan/0038.html

Received on Monday, 11 April 2005 22:26:12 UTC

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