W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-tracking@w3.org > February 2013

Re: RE: RE: ISSUE-10 First party definition, ISSUE-60, ACTION-?

From: Rigo Wenning <rigo@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:36:24 +0100
To: Alexander Hanff <a.hanff@think-privacy.com>
Cc: public-tracking@w3.org, 'John Simpson' <john@consumerwatchdog.org>
Message-ID: <2004030.4JaMDpznGY@hegel.sophia.w3.org>
Alexander, 

On Wednesday 27 February 2013 22:23:06 Alexander Hanff wrote:
> As I have stated multiple times now, it is not acceptable to simply
> redefine 3rd party tracking widgets to first party for the purpose of
> putting them out of scope of the DNT compliance policy.  TPWG has no
> right whatsoever to presume to know what consumers intend to consent
> to when they interact with a widget.

The TPWG does not presume. The TPWG does not carry rights. You're on a 
complete wrong angle here, if you want to contribute. 

I hear your concern about widgets littered all over the place replacing 
tracking 1x1 pixel graphics (web beacons). But those widgets are 
1/ not hidden
2/ there to interact with

As long as they are passive, the Specification clearly states that if 
the widgets are served from the widget's owner's site, they are third 
party content. (or if they phone home in any way). 

If the user clicks on them (the Spec clearly says onmouseover is not 
sufficient), this is like clicking on a link. Saying that clicking on a 
link or a widget on the web you'll expect that it won't bring you 
somewhere else is not matching what this technology has been doing since 
its inception.
> 
> In the absence of that knowledge they must assume that the intended
> purpose of the user is to do nothing more than use the widget, not
> that using the widget is consent to being tracked (a peripheral
> purpose of the widget not immediately apparent to the user).

Oh, what you're saying is that DNT should apply also to first parties. 
This is certainly true for the European (regulated) market. The US folks 
don't dare going there. So the TPE and the TCS only have very limited 
restrictions on first parties. This is certainly not what I would call a 
circumvention. It is just the fact that the Group has chosen to exclude 
first party tracking so far. Many advocates have trouble with that, but 
settled so far by saying: "If we address cross site tracking and find a 
solution, that's a good step forward". I hear "not good enough" and I'm 
tempted to respond "never good enough, but let's make a first step". 
> 
> To my knowledge there has been no research by the TPWG to support this
> decision, it is quite simply arbitrary and completely offensive.

This feeling of offense comes from the misunderstanding that the Group 
would also address first party tracking. This is not the case. There 
will be some remarks in the global considerations document. 
> 
> If I click on a like button I am clicking on a button to say I like an
> article, I am not saying "Hey Facebook, use this web site in my
> behavioural profile even though I have DNT set!" - what this group is
> suggesting with the redefinition is a complete mockery of the concept
> of DNT and furthermore shows utter contempt for the choices of the
> users it will impact.

You're clicking on a link! I click on a button and by some magic, all 
sites are federated in a way that they use telepathy to collect 
information how many times a document is liked? Seriously, this works 
because there is a service counting the clicks. And this is typically 
not the first party (content) as often, the same content is on many 
sites. So please tone down a bit so that we can understand your 
concerns. Utter complete complaints don't do the trick.

BTW, one of the main reasons to do DNT for the industry is to preserve 
the efficiency by such third party services that can service 
functionality on demand in a Web 2.0 scenario. If everything comes from 
the same site, we are back in HTML 1.0. Charging things from third 
parties started as early as HTML 2.0 and Netscape allowing for images 
with arbitrary URI to be displayed.

 --Rigo
Received on Thursday, 28 February 2013 10:36:53 UTC

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