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RE: ACTION-152 - Write up logged-in-means-out-of-band-consent

From: JC Cannon <jccannon@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:30:20 +0000
To: Shane Wiley <wileys@yahoo-inc.com>, David Singer <singer@apple.com>, "public-tracking@w3.org (public-tracking@w3.org)" <public-tracking@w3.org>
Message-ID: <BB17D596C94A854E9EE4171D33BBCC810872D7@TK5EX14MBXC133.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
I'm more inclined to agree with Shane here. I always want to vote on the side of greater flexibility for the consumer.

David, by following your model I would have to click on the Like button to determine if my friends Liked an article, at the same time permitting FB to track me, which is what I don't want. Show me how in your model I can have the level of flexibility and privacy I describe.


From: Shane Wiley [mailto:wileys@yahoo-inc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 7:52 PM
To: David Singer; public-tracking@w3.org (public-tracking@w3.org)
Subject: RE: ACTION-152 - Write up logged-in-means-out-of-band-consent


I disagree that asking users to manage their logged-in state is a non-starter.  What leads you to that conclusion?  Facebook charges $700K/day to post an ad on their logout page.  :)  (I hope I've quoted that from recent press articles correctly.)

But I believe that's a red herring for this discussion and would instead focus on the "consent" element.

First, I didn't intend to state that UAs won't continue to send DNT:1 for a logged-in user, I'm stating that if its sent and the party has out-of-band consent from the user for tracking in that circumstance that the DNT signal will be ignored.  Also, why are we discussing cookies here?

Second, on the concepts of bundling and product features, while I agree that "open and transparent" notices are best practice, I don't believe it's appropriate for this group to attempt to set standards of acceptable consent paradigms that will vary significantly based on situation.  As we've discussed on similar topics, it's more appropriate to allow local legal structures to continue to manage the required level of disclosure.  For example, in the US we have the Sears Consent Order to draw upon.

I'd ask that we focus on the core issues with DNT and resist the temptation to solve the broader set of online privacy debates in one pass.

Thank you,
- Shane

From: David Singer [mailto:singer@apple.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 7:50 PM
To: public-tracking@w3.org (public-tracking@w3.org)
Subject: Re: ACTION-152 - Write up logged-in-means-out-of-band-consent

On Mar 27, 2012, at 5:54 , Shane Wiley wrote:

Per my action item from last week, here is a position statement with respect to setting new business rules for "logged-in users" with respect to personalization off of the 1st party site and DNT.

"User registration and login often are bundled with a set of sign-up flow notices, Terms of Service, and Privacy Policy by which a 1st party will operate.  If these notices directly address interactions with users off of the 1st parties direct web site, such as through Widgets or other interactions with a user in a logged-in state, in an open and transparent manner, then this is considered an out-of-band user consent and DNT signals will be ignored."


I don't think we can tell users "if you want privacy, remember to log out all the time".  That's a non-starter. So I agree, a general "logged-in exception" doesn't fly, for me.

Nor do I think we can tell UAs "don't send cookies with DNT:1" because then trivial things will stop working (e.g. a cookie that selected the language or size of the 'like' button itself).  Sites will have to expect to get DNT and cookies, and we need to say what that means if the cookies are actually identifying the user.

I think the text needs to be more explicit, and say that permitting the site to track the user has to be a distinct choice, not 'bundled' with any other (e.g. a check-box in the preferences).  Otherwise I fear that sites will say that merely by signing up you made that choice.  I would prefer it not even be a choice, I think, but I am open to debate.

Otherwise, what Jonathan has said holds - that if you set DNT, and not the preference (if any), then you'll need to interact directly with the third party before they will recognize you and track you. I don't think it's too bad; click on the button, and now it can track you, for example.

Treating me as someone you know, but about whom you *remember* nothing, is intriguing but (IMHO) excessively subtle.

David Singer
Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.
Received on Wednesday, 28 March 2012 15:31:05 UTC

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