W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-tracking@w3.org > February 2012

Re: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54

From: Jonathan Robert Mayer <jmayer@stanford.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:19:26 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <55044324-341E-44D6-8C1D-0275B1127324@stanford.edu>
To: JC Cannon <jccannon@microsoft.com>
Cc: "public-tracking@w3.org (public-tracking@w3.org)" <public-tracking@w3.org>
Without DNT, users would not be guaranteed the ability to opt out. That's the status quo.

On Feb 13, 2012, at 2:41 PM, JC Cannon <jccannon@microsoft.com> wrote:

> That looks like something that is handled by Facebook, which seems great to me. Why does DNT have to get involved?
>  
> JC
>  
> From: Jonathan Mayer [mailto:jmayer@stanford.edu] 
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 2:33 PM
> To: public-tracking@w3.org (public-tracking@w3.org)
> Subject: Re: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54
>  
> Social widgets would not "stop working."  Users certainly would not need to "re-enable [widgets] on every site."  To clarify, here's our Facebook mock-up.
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> Embedded widget:
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> <image001.png>
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> Consent option:
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> <image002.png>
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> On Feb 13, 2012, at 2:07 PM, JC Cannon wrote:
> 
> 
> If we start making changes that degrades consumers’ online experience or makes them work too hard to get their experience back to normal they won’t use. As a consumer I want to just click  a button and be protected without everything else changing. If I enable DNT:1 and all of a sudden all my social widgets stop working or you tell me to “just” re-enable them on every site, I’m just going to turn it off.
>  
> Rob provided a good example of a site that manages social widgets (widgets at bottom of article). I like the way it works, but I wouldn’t want to manage the settings on every site.
>  
> Responses to your suggestions below.
>  
> JC
> Twitter
>  
> From: Jonathan Mayer [mailto:jmayer@stanford.edu] 
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 1:12 PM
> To: Geoff Gieron - AdTruth
> Cc: JC Cannon; Jeffrey Chester; John Simpson; Justin Brookman; public-tracking@w3.org
> Subject: Re: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54
>  
> I've seen a few suggestions that I'd disagree with on this thread.  Since they seem fairly independent, I'll break them out individually.
>  
> 1) We should allow social widget personalization because some users might want it.
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> The same argument applies to any prohibited practice.  That's why the TPE specification provides an explicit exception mechanism.  If a user wants to see more personalized content from a third party or using third-party data, whether stuff their friends liked or (tracking-based) interest-targeted advertising, they can provide an exception.  We mocked up an exception flow for Facebook's social widgets at http://donottrack.us/cookbook/.

> [JC] I feel the logged in state is different from standard third-party interaction. As a consumer I don’t want to provide an exception our use the cookbook strategy for something I already control. If I don’t want the functionality I will log out.
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> 2) Social widget providers are first parties if the user has logged in since the user has a business relationship with the website.
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> I thought we had agreement in Santa Clara and on the list that third-party widgets become first party by means of user interaction, not logged-in status.
> [JC] I agree the widget does not get first-party status, but they should still be able to personalize my experience, which I control. I don’t see that as first party functionality.
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> 3) Social personalization isn't the same as third-party data collection.
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> I don't follow this line at all.  Embedded social content is from a third party, and that third party collects data.  Moreover, the data collection practices currently used for social personalization rely not only on a unique ID—they rely  on an ID tied to the user's identity.
> [JC] Third parties have the ID information whether DNT is enabled or not. The header tells them their obligations to me as a consumer and whether or not they can process my data.
>  
> On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Geoff Gieron - AdTruth wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> JC – you raise a valid point on tracking vs social sharing.  One thing I would like to point out about this though is how logged in entities like Facebook already supersede existing browser solutions, such as Private Browsing (notice how Facebook still knows it is you on sites outside their network when you are suppose to be incognito to all entities).
>  
> So based on your ascertainment – I do agree that DNT should not disrupt the value of social sharing when you are logged in and remained logged AND Private Browsing/Incognito Mode should be what cuts even this level of detection by these types of services regardless of login. However – we are not standardizing Private Browsing/Incognito Mode so I'm concerned that the ability by a few customer facing companies like Google, Yahoo, Facebook, Amazon, AOL and Microsoft essentially may have the ability to completely work around all existing browser based solution offered to a consumer.
>  
> Is my concern valid to you?
>  
> Geoff Gieron
> Business Development Strategist
>  
> <B6D349F0-DB69-481C-A4A8-5CC1CDE1C45E[87].png>
>  
> O:   +1.480.776.5525
> M:  +1.602.418.8094
> ggieron@adtruth.com  
> www.adtruth.com 
>  
>  
> From: JC Cannon <jccannon@microsoft.com>
> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:29:21 +0000
> To: Jeffrey Chester <jeff@democraticmedia.org>
> Cc: John Simpson <john@consumerwatchdog.org>, Jonathan Robert Mayer <jmayer@stanford.edu>, Justin Brookman <justin@cdt.org>, "public-tracking@w3.org" <public-tracking@w3.org>
> Subject: RE: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54
> Resent-From: <public-tracking@w3.org>
> Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:30:10 +0000
>  
> I’m not stating that data can be collected on me. I’m only stating that during a logged-in state a social site may personalize my experience based on my settings on the social site. The social site does not have the right to capture my browsing habits or process any data on me unless I interact with its widget.
>  
> JC
> Twitter
>  
> From: Jeffrey Chester [mailto:jeff@democraticmedia.org] 
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:16 AM
> To: JC Cannon
> Cc: John Simpson; Jonathan Robert Mayer; Justin Brookman; public-tracking@w3.org
> Subject: Re: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54
>  
> Let's have a further discussion on this.  Can you say what data can be collected from a user when DNT:1 is on as they access social services?
>  
>  
>  
> Jeffrey Chester
> Center for Digital Democracy
> 1621 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 550
> Washington, DC 20009
> www.democraticmedia.org
> www.digitalads.org
> 202-986-2220
>  
> On Feb 13, 2012, at 12:09 PM, JC Cannon wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff,
>  
> I disagree with your position, because I would still want that feature if I’m logged in and have DNT:1 enabled. This is part of the concern I have about making decisions for consumers that they may not want. If I can disable the article annotation by logging off from the social site, why bundle it with DNT taking away my flexibility?
>  
> JC
> Twitter
>  
> From: Jeffrey Chester [mailto:jeff@democraticmedia.org] 
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 6:46 AM
> To: JC Cannon
> Cc: John Simpson; Jonathan Robert Mayer; Justin Brookman; public-tracking@w3.org
> Subject: Re: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54
>  
> JC:  
>  
> DNT:1 serves as a form of granular privacy protection.  If one has DNT:1 on, they don't want tracking process working--even if it means they can't find out their friends enjoyed reading your latest book!  Happy to discuss.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to drill into this a little further. How would this apply to a logged in state? If I’m logged into a social site and reading an article I would be interested to know if people I trust from that social site enjoyed the article or not without necessarily letting people know that I viewed the article, unless I select the share button. I don’t want to have to enable tracking just to see if my friends liked the article.
>  
> JC
> Twitter
>  
> From: John Simpson [mailto:john@consumerwatchdog.org] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 11:53 AM
> To: Jeffrey Chester
> Cc: Jonathan Robert Mayer; Justin Brookman; public-tracking@w3.org
> Subject: Re: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54
>  
> I agree that when a site acts as a third party it MUST not engage in targeting based on data gathered when it was a 1st party if DNT is enabled.
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>  
> On Feb 8, 2012, at 8:43 AM, Jeffrey Chester wrote:
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> I don't think if DNT is enabled a third party should be able to engage in profile-based targeting that they have collected as first party, as Justin perhaps as proposed.  That would weaken user intent on DNT.  
>  
>  
> Jeffrey Chester
> Center for Digital Democracy
> 1621 Connecticut Ave, NW, Suite 550
> Washington, DC 20009
> www.democraticmedia.org
> www.digitalads.org
> 202-986-2220
>  
> On Feb 8, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Jonathan Robert Mayer wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the interest of clarity, I recommend we make two ISSUEs from ISSUE-54.
>  
> 1) What can a first party do on its own website with provided information? I completely agree with Shane that this falls into the current first party proposal, and I expect we'll get consensus and close the ISSUE quickly.
>  
> 2) What can a first party do with submitted information when it's a third party? We've already heard a range of views on this; I expect lengthy discussion and perspectives from many stakeholders before we close the ISSUE.
> 
> On Feb 8, 2012, at 7:20 AM, Justin Brookman <justin@cdt.org> wrote:
> 
> I think Sean's restatement of the issue is a bit ambiguous.  The key question is not whether a first party can alter its own websites and advertising on those sites based on data it collected as a first party.  It's about whether they can then leverage that data when they're in a third-party environment.
> 
> I was tasked with writing up language on this in Brussels, but upon reflection, my vision is already allowed for in the text:  a third-party may customize content or advertising on other sites based on data it had collected as a first-party.  Thus, Yahoo! can serve ads on the New York Times based on what I had done on the Yahoo! site (or registration information I had provided to Yahoo!) and Facebook can tell me what my friends like in a social widget when I go to the WashingtonPost.com --- as long as neither collects the fact that I went to NYT or WaPo (apart from exceptions like ad reporting, fraud, analytics) and certainly does not add that information to a profile about me.  The language in the draft currently allows for this.  However, I will try to put together some non-normative language on this today to make it clear.  I have heard the argument that this unduly favors first-party sites who have a lot of user data, but I also think the privacy implications are dramatically reduced when ads are influenced based on data that a party already has about you.
> 
> Shane, you had seemed to disagree with this idea in Brussels, so if you want to put forward a countersuggestion that's fine.  Alternatively, Tom had disagreed on one of the calls that Facebook should be allowed to personalize content based on data it had collected as a first-party, so he may want to proffer another suggestion.  I could see a stronger argument against allowing Yahoo! to use passively-collected data about what I read on the Yahoo! site rather than using affirmatively provided info, but I personally wouldn't draw the line there.  It's also possible this issue is currently being discussed elsewhere on the mailing list, but I have not remotely been able to keep up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Justin Brookman
> Director, Consumer Privacy
> Center for Democracy & Technology
> 1634 I Street NW, Suite 1100
> Washington, DC 20006
> tel 202.407.8812
> fax 202.637.0969
> justin@cdt.org
> http://www.cdt.org

> @CenDemTech
> @JustinBrookman
> 
> On 2/6/2012 10:10 AM, Shane Wiley wrote:
> And the proposed answer, “YES”, as this appears to capture the 1st party exception cleanly and we have other statements that disallow a 1st party from sharing information with 3rd parties when DNT:1.
>  
> - Shane
>  
> From: Sean Harvey [mailto:sharvey@google.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 5:27 PM
> To: public-tracking@w3.org Group WG
> Subject: ACTION-69: Renaming ISSUE-54
>  
> Hi all, apologies for the delay in submitting my action item. 
>  
> ISSUE-54 is intended to get at the question of whether or not a first party is allowed to leverage their own data, including registration data provided by the user at a previous time, in the context of a DNT header being ON. 
>  
> Keep in mind I am not intending to provide an answer, only to more appropriately rename the topic. 
>  
> In light of this I propose the Issue be renamed: 
>  
> "Can first parties customize their own websites or advertising based on their own user data when a DNT header is ON?"
>  
>  
>  
> ----------
> John M. Simpson
> Consumer Advocate
> Consumer Watchdog
> 1750 Ocean Park Blvd. ,Suite 200
> Santa Monica, CA,90405
> Tel: 310-392-7041
> Cell: 310-292-1902
> www.ConsumerWatchdog.org
> john@consumerwatchdog.org
>  
>  
>  
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Received on Monday, 13 February 2012 23:19:56 UTC

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