W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-tracking@w3.org > November 2011

Re: "cross-site"

From: Chris Pedigo <CPedigo@online-publishers.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 12:56:09 +0000
To: John Simpson <john@consumerwatchdog.org>
CC: Mike Zaneis <mike@iab.net>, Shane Wiley <wileys@yahoo-inc.com>, Karl Dubost <karld@opera.com>, Jules Polonetsky <julespol@futureofprivacy.org>, Nicholas Doty <npdoty@w3.org>, "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, "<public-tracking@w3.org>" <public-tracking@w3.org>
Message-ID: <A8721B26-C478-4D81-8DB6-5230D109237C@online-publishers.org>

The FTC Commissioners voted to release the FTC staff report on Behavioral Advertising in February 2009.  Clearly, they supported the staff position that there is a difference in user expectations with regard to first and third parties.


What's more is that the FTC's recently-issued revisions to the COPPA rules (which govern kids-oriented sites) include a provision for sites to collect personal information without triggering any of COPPA's requirements so long as the data is used for "internal operations" of the site. Again, the FTC recognizes a difference between first and third parties.

In addition, many of the privacy bills introduced in the US Congress include provisions to differentiate between first and third party uses of data.

On the whole, if you were to discard the views of extreme fringes of both sides of the political spectrum, you would find a broad middle ground that understands first and third parties have different relationships with consumers and have different uses of data, and, therefore, should be treated differently in any workable standard.


Chris Pedigo
VP, Government Affairs
Online Publishers Association
(202) 744-2967

On Nov 17, 2011, at 7:33 PM, "John Simpson" <john@consumerwatchdog.org<mailto:john@consumerwatchdog.org>> wrote:


The FTC hasn't taken a position on this.  That only happens when the commissioners vote and they have not.  I think what you're doing is predicting what you think a majority would say if they voted.


On Nov 17, 2011, at 12:28 PM, Mike Zaneis wrote:

This is where there is a fundamental split amongst the parties. We had a discussion several weeks ago about the first party obligations and I pointed out that IAB and my member companies generally support the U.S. FTC position that consumers don't expect first parties to be subject to such restrictions.  Those positions have not changed.

Mike Zaneis
SVP & General Counsel, IAB
(202) 253-1466

On Nov 17, 2011, at 2:56 PM, "John Simpson" <john@consumerwatchdog.org<mailto:john@consumerwatchdog.org>> wrote:


I don't understand why we would say that a 1st party most likely will not be subject to the DNT signal.  If we continue to use the 1st party/ 3rd party distinction, it will likely (almost certainly) have different and probably fewer obligations than a third party. It should still be subject to the signal.

As a user I want the 1st party site to know that I have DNT configured.  As a 1st party site operator I want to know a visitor has configured DNT and is sending me the signal.  There will be some "musts", ie not sharing data from a DNT configured user with 3rd parties, but if I am a responsible site operator I may chose to go further in honoring the DNT request.  For instance I might chose to not even include the visitor in my analytics. I need to know if  DNT is configured and the way this happens is by being subject to the DNT signal.

The obligations are different, but its important that we think of all sites being subject to the DNT signal, once it is configured in the browser.


On Nov 17, 2011, at 7:22 AM, Shane Wiley wrote:


This statement is an attempt to remove the concern that a 1st party, which will mostly likely not be subject to the DNT signal, does not have a backdoor opportunity to pass user data directly to a 3rd party (aka - closing a loop-hole).  3rd parties present on the 1st party's web site should honor the DNT signal directly.

- Shane

-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Dubost [mailto:karld@opera.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 5:40 AM
To: Shane Wiley
Cc: John Simpson; Jules Polonetsky; Nicholas Doty; Roy T. Fielding; Mark Nottingham; <<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>public-tracking@w3.org<mailto:public-tracking@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: "cross-site"

Le 16 nov. 2011 à 23:30, Shane Wiley a écrit :
Alter statement to read "First parties must NOT share user specific data with 3rd parties for those user who send the DNT signal and have not granted a site-specific exception to the 1st party."  This will leave room for sharing with Agents/Service Providers/Vendors to the 1st party -- as well as sharing aggregate and anonymous data with "others" (general reporting, for example).

I guess you mean
s/DNT signal/DNT:1 signal"

Trying to understand what you are saying.

1. User sends DNT:1 to a website with domain name <http://www.example.org/> www.example.org<http://www.example.org/>
2. <http://www.example.org/> www.example.org<http://www.example.org/> collects data about the user
  (IP address and categories of pages the user visits)
3. Company Acme Hosting Inc. (a 3rd party) has access to these
  data NOT through the Web but through an access to the logs file.

What is happening?

Karl Dubost - <http://dev.opera.com/> http://dev.opera.com/
Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software

John M. Simpson
Consumer Advocate
Consumer Watchdog
1750 Ocean Park Blvd. ,Suite 200
Santa Monica, CA,90405
Tel: 310-392-7041
Cell: 310-292-1902

John M. Simpson
Consumer Advocate
Consumer Watchdog
1750 Ocean Park Blvd. ,Suite 200
Santa Monica, CA,90405
Tel: 310-392-7041
Cell: 310-292-1902
Received on Friday, 18 November 2011 16:52:42 UTC

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