W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-texttracks@w3.org > April 2012

The need of newlines in WebVTT (was Re: Displaying multiple lines in WebVTT)

From: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:03:04 +1000
Message-ID: <CAHp8n2mQCikn8wY2-Cz9cvrY3AxuJ72AexZbs_=2Cs=bMgSx=g@mail.gmail.com>
To: Glenn Maynard <glenn@zewt.org>
Cc: Frank Olivier <Frank.Olivier@microsoft.com>, "public-texttracks@w3.org" <public-texttracks@w3.org>
[Changing topic to better reflect the discussion]

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 12:22 AM, Glenn Maynard <glenn@zewt.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I understand where you're coming from and some part of me agrees that
>> line breaks should be left to the browser.
>>
>> However, there are rules on what quality captions should look like and
>> how lines should be broken, see
>> http://www.dcmp.org/captioningkey/text.html the line division section.
>> That would not be possible unless you allow explicit lines breaks and
>> make it easy to author them. I believe that is the reason why most
>> captioning formats work with explicit line breaks.
>
>
> I'm not suggesting prohibiting manual line breaks, of course; only making
> them explicit, and as a side-effect of that, encouraging people to leave
> wrapping up to the browser.
>
>> We have automated line wrapping for long lines. However, "long" is
>> only defined as hitting the edge of the video element. If you have a
>> better suggestion for when line breaking should kick in, I think that
>> might be a good idea.
>
>
> I'm not sure, exactly.† Users probably have different preferences, so I'd
> suggest leaving this up to browsers.† (Since you can't precisely control
> font rendering, sites can't depend on captions coming out a precise size on
> all browsers anyway, so I don't think this reduces interop.)

They're roughly the same, which is, I believe, sufficient for interop.


>> > WebVTT text should mimic HTML (in its default whitespace mode): collapse
>> > newlines to a space, and use a <br> marker to indicate explicit line
>> > breaks
>> > when they're really wanted.
>>
>> There would be too many <br>s since all captions are usually
>> hand-crafted. When the video is increased in size, the captions are
>> scaled up in font-size, so that works out.
>
>
> That's a tendency that we need to discourage.† "Hand-crafting" word-wrapping
> is a fundamentally, inherently broken way to author content on the Web,
> since (among other reasons) we don't prescribe font rendering.

OK, but there is a large number of existing content that uses those
hand-crafted newlines. I think they should continue to be supported.
If a user instead prefers to have the browser do the line breaks, they
can always remove the newlines when they are converting from existing
content to WebVTT and specify a "size" one the cues to determine at
which width the line break should occur.

The thing is: right now we are supporting both (automated line breaks
and hard line breaks) in a simple manner. If we required <br>s for
line breaks, that would bring extra overhead for no apparent advantage
(at least none that I could directly point out).



> Note that SSA/ASS captions (the most common formats for fansubbing) usually
> does use automatic word-wrapping.

That's likely because their cues are specified on one line [1]. In
order to force a new line, you have to insert {\N}, making the cue
even less readable. I assume people would rather author another cue
instead of doing this.

[1] http://docs.aegisub.org/manual/ASS_Tags


> When the font being used to render captions is larger than the font the
> author used, it can easily result in lines no longer fitting, which results
> in captions meant to render like this:
>
>> word word word word word word word word word word word<br>
>> word word word word word word
>
> (<br> being the author's manual break) ending up looking like this:
>
>> word word word word word word word word word word
>> word<br>
>> word word word word word word
>
> This isn't theoretical.† I've seen this artifact in the real world many
> times (probably with SRT).

I agree, I've seen this before, too. It is particularly awful when all
of this is actually one sentence. It's actually fine when they are two
sentences, e.g.

Mary: This is the very long sentence that I
wanted to say.
Paul: Ah, ok, this is my reply.

It would be bad if this was indeed mashed together.

> (Please don't say that users can't be allowed to choose their own minimum
> font sizes.† That's a fundamental accessibility feature.† I always set a
> minimum font size in my browser, because web pages often use font sizes too
> small for my comfort.† That needs to apply to captions, just as with other
> web content.)
>
> This can happen if the line is longer than expected for any other reason,
> too.† Different font engines will result in different renderings; different
> fonts will be used due to font replacement when the font selected isn't
> available; even the same font can render differently in different versions
> of a font, and so on.† Content that expects a particular font rendering is
> broken, whether it's an HTML document or a caption, and we should do what we
> can to minimize that sort of content. †Currently, the format *encourages*
> it, which is very bad.
>
> (As a final note, even when people really want to manually wrap captions, I
> disagree that it results in too many <br>s.† There's no significant harm in
> that--certainly none that outweighs the benefits--and it only affects
> badly-authored captions anyway. †Anyhow, the only case I can see where
> people might legitimately--for some value of "legitimate"--be manually
> word-wrapping is when converting from other formats, in which case it
> doesn't matter if there are lots of <br>s.)

I think there are good arguments for both positions: explicitly
calling out newlines makes it clear to people where their cue text may
be broken, but makes it harder to read. I guess it depends on whether
we can find a good enough "line balancing" algorithm that will provide
for the quality of captions that people have come to expect [2].

For example, the caption key clearly states that this is an
inappropriate caption rendering:
Mark pushed his black
truck.

While in contrast this is appropriate:
Mark pushed
his black truck.

Here are some of the rules it states:
* Do not break a modifier from the word it modifies.
* Do not break a prepositional phrase.
* Do not break a personís name nor a title from the name with which it
is associated.
* Do not break a line after a conjunction.
* Do not break an auxiliary verb from the word it modifies.
* Never end a sentence and begin a new sentence on the same line
unless they are short, related sentences containing one or two words.

I do not believe we currently have a CSS line-break algorithm that
supports these. Until that happens, caption providers will continue to
use hard newlines to make sure that they meet these requirements for
the 90% rendering case.

[2] http://www.dcmp.org/captioningkey/text.html


>> >† A "balanced" word-wrapping mode should also be
>> > added, to wrap lines in with balanced line-lengths, which is the typical
>> > wrapping method for captions.
>>
>> How do you suggest that should look?
>
>
> Basically, instead of using paragraph-style wrapping, which wraps (roughly
> speaking)†at the latest opportunity per line:
>
> word word word word word word word word word word
> word word word word word word word word word word
> word word
>
> it adjusts the breaks to attempt to make each line a similar length:
>
> word word word word word word word word
> word word word word word word word word
> word word word word word word
>
> It would never use a greater number of line breaks than in the regular
> wrapping mode.† Above, two line breaks are used, and balanced wrapping would
> never increase that to three in an attempt to balance more evently.† It
> would only move the breaks around.
>
> (This would be a CSS feature that WebVTT would use, not a WebVTT-specific
> feature. †I think Ian at least sounded open to the idea when I talked to him
> about it last.)

Considering all the requirements that I listed above for quality
captions, I doubt we will be able to introduce a CSS line break
algorithm that will allow us to meet all of the requirements with a
fully automated algorithm, as much as I would love to. It would,
however, be good if we could at least tell CSS to use a better
balancing algorithm than the existing one. That - in my mind - is,
however, a different issue to whether we introduce explicit markup for
line breaks or not. I don't think we need the extra markup. I do think
though that we need the extra line balancing algorithm.

Cheers,
Silvia.
Received on Tuesday, 10 April 2012 04:03:54 UTC

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